r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 14 '18

Huang Po: Motionless Mind

Not til your thoughts cease their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

  • Huang Po
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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

The problem is that Huangbo was almost totally against zazen. People use his quotes here all of the time to show everyone how wrong they are for believing in the effectiveness of zazen.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

He’s not against Zazen, he’s against attachment to the practice of sitting dhyana.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I hear you, but it sure didn't seem that way when I read On Transmission of Mind.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Remember, Huangbo had a particular audience in mind when he gave sermons. These people that he talked to all engaged in meditation, took up precepts, and were basically all Buddhist monks. Huangbo is an iconoclast, definitely, but even the great patriarch Huineng advocated for zazen. So i'd be careful when saying that Huangbo disparages zazen in this case.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Not sure if you remember this, but a while back I wrote an original thread on Huangbo's On Transmission of Mind after reading it. I pulled two paragraphs about Huangbo extolling the virtues of zazen and mindfulness practice, and some of the people in the community here tore me to shreds! People were pissed, saying that I found only what I wanted to see about zazen and ignoring the rest. Perhaps that is where this tainted view of mine comes from! Now explain that to me.

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u/Healthspin independent Mar 14 '18

It sounds like at first you didn't have a solid ground to stand on with respect to Huangbo.
So your impression changed according to what other people said and shared. Now, when you share your new understanding, it is again challenged and changed.
The only common denominator I see is taking words for meaning, rather than digging for direct experience. Don't you see? Huangbo would slap you if he saw you searching for his pennies on the ground.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

You are totally right with all of the points you've shared here. I was brand new to Huangbo, and it was the first book that I've ever read on him so it is really tough to figure out the proper stance on the matter. It seemed like most of the book was against the attachment to zazen. It can be really hard to stand on your own with the community mostly against a point you may bring out, and I'm here to learn but it can be tough. Thanks for pointing this out.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

That makes sense.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Thirdhand authority is problematic without firsthand experience.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Are you trying to say I don't have firsthand experience?

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

It is not black-and-white, peachblossom, it's a matter of degree.

The more personal experience a person has, the better he is able to judge these stories.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

LMAO, thank you, rosebud!

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I did not compliment you, I told you that your logic is simplistic.

It's like you surround yourself with a protective membrane of bullshit. This membrane also interferes with communication.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

That’s not really an accurate statement

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Well, I did say "almost totally" haha. In his On Transmission of Mind, I only found like one paragraph saying that zazen and mindfulness practice were any good.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Huangbo wasn’t against zuochan.

Huangbo was for cutting off conceptual thought, anyway, anyhow.

The real question is whether zuochan can cut off conceptual thought. The sectarian trolls around here never want to have that debate, because that would be a tough argument for them.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

What makes that convo hard? I haven't seen any questions seeded that were particularly difficult to talk about. I don't know of I've made an preemptive claims, but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

Of course, if you go into studying Zen with the mindset that Zen masters answered no to that question, and exclude all the figures and texts and even passages within texts that are problematic for that position... well, that’s a circular argument, now isn’t it?

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

I mentioned that my no was not based on zen masters.

but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Oh I misread that as “based on the logic of what Zen masters say”.

Uhh, what do you mean by “logic”?

If you practice meditation yourself you can really easily find out about this by personal experience, there’s no need to swallow any syllogism

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

Many claim meditation happens in stages and states and takes time.

So in this case I don't think it would be dumb to look at the logic of 'being able to reach nothing by doing something' before or even while also meditating.

I don't have to dedicate years to a thing to decide whether I want to dedicate years to a thing.

(I'm not ignoring what zen masters say, but just setting it aside for a full convo)

Its not that hard as far as I see...Zen masters speak of nothing...and whatever meditation is it is something, so boiled down like that we can make arguments.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

A teacher of old gave a wrong answer and became a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. What if he hadn't given a wrong answer?

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

SLAP

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

The real question is whether zuochan can cut off conceptual thought.

Yes, I've found out on my own that it can! The more I have practiced zazen on my own along with mindfulness, I've seen that the extraneous and distracting thoughts of the mind have calmed down. Also, I can tell that the more I do this, the cleaner and more focused my mind will become over time.