r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 14 '18

Huang Po: Motionless Mind

Not til your thoughts cease their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

  • Huang Po
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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

What makes that convo hard? I haven't seen any questions seeded that were particularly difficult to talk about. I don't know of I've made an preemptive claims, but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

Of course, if you go into studying Zen with the mindset that Zen masters answered no to that question, and exclude all the figures and texts and even passages within texts that are problematic for that position... well, that’s a circular argument, now isn’t it?

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

I mentioned that my no was not based on zen masters.

but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Oh I misread that as “based on the logic of what Zen masters say”.

Uhh, what do you mean by “logic”?

If you practice meditation yourself you can really easily find out about this by personal experience, there’s no need to swallow any syllogism

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

Many claim meditation happens in stages and states and takes time.

So in this case I don't think it would be dumb to look at the logic of 'being able to reach nothing by doing something' before or even while also meditating.

I don't have to dedicate years to a thing to decide whether I want to dedicate years to a thing.

(I'm not ignoring what zen masters say, but just setting it aside for a full convo)

Its not that hard as far as I see...Zen masters speak of nothing...and whatever meditation is it is something, so boiled down like that we can make arguments.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

A teacher of old gave a wrong answer and became a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. What if he hadn't given a wrong answer?

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

SLAP