r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 14 '18

Huang Po: Motionless Mind

Not til your thoughts cease their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

  • Huang Po
20 Upvotes

95% Upvoted

184 comments sorted by

View all comments

3

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

The problem is that Huangbo was almost totally against zazen. People use his quotes here all of the time to show everyone how wrong they are for believing in the effectiveness of zazen.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

He’s not against Zazen, he’s against attachment to the practice of sitting dhyana.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I hear you, but it sure didn't seem that way when I read On Transmission of Mind.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Remember, Huangbo had a particular audience in mind when he gave sermons. These people that he talked to all engaged in meditation, took up precepts, and were basically all Buddhist monks. Huangbo is an iconoclast, definitely, but even the great patriarch Huineng advocated for zazen. So i'd be careful when saying that Huangbo disparages zazen in this case.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Not sure if you remember this, but a while back I wrote an original thread on Huangbo's On Transmission of Mind after reading it. I pulled two paragraphs about Huangbo extolling the virtues of zazen and mindfulness practice, and some of the people in the community here tore me to shreds! People were pissed, saying that I found only what I wanted to see about zazen and ignoring the rest. Perhaps that is where this tainted view of mine comes from! Now explain that to me.

3

u/Healthspin independent Mar 14 '18

It sounds like at first you didn't have a solid ground to stand on with respect to Huangbo.
So your impression changed according to what other people said and shared. Now, when you share your new understanding, it is again challenged and changed.
The only common denominator I see is taking words for meaning, rather than digging for direct experience. Don't you see? Huangbo would slap you if he saw you searching for his pennies on the ground.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

You are totally right with all of the points you've shared here. I was brand new to Huangbo, and it was the first book that I've ever read on him so it is really tough to figure out the proper stance on the matter. It seemed like most of the book was against the attachment to zazen. It can be really hard to stand on your own with the community mostly against a point you may bring out, and I'm here to learn but it can be tough. Thanks for pointing this out.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

That makes sense.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Thirdhand authority is problematic without firsthand experience.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Are you trying to say I don't have firsthand experience?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

It is not black-and-white, peachblossom, it's a matter of degree.

The more personal experience a person has, the better he is able to judge these stories.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

LMAO, thank you, rosebud!

→ More replies (0)

3

u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

That’s not really an accurate statement

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Well, I did say "almost totally" haha. In his On Transmission of Mind, I only found like one paragraph saying that zazen and mindfulness practice were any good.

2

u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Huangbo wasn’t against zuochan.

Huangbo was for cutting off conceptual thought, anyway, anyhow.

The real question is whether zuochan can cut off conceptual thought. The sectarian trolls around here never want to have that debate, because that would be a tough argument for them.

1

u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

What makes that convo hard? I haven't seen any questions seeded that were particularly difficult to talk about. I don't know of I've made an preemptive claims, but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say.

2

u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

Of course, if you go into studying Zen with the mindset that Zen masters answered no to that question, and exclude all the figures and texts and even passages within texts that are problematic for that position... well, that’s a circular argument, now isn’t it?

1

u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Nah, plenty of Zen masters say yes.

I mentioned that my no was not based on zen masters.

but the obvious answer seems like 'no', based on logic not what zen masters say

1

u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Oh I misread that as “based on the logic of what Zen masters say”.

Uhh, what do you mean by “logic”?

If you practice meditation yourself you can really easily find out about this by personal experience, there’s no need to swallow any syllogism

2

u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

Many claim meditation happens in stages and states and takes time.

So in this case I don't think it would be dumb to look at the logic of 'being able to reach nothing by doing something' before or even while also meditating.

I don't have to dedicate years to a thing to decide whether I want to dedicate years to a thing.

(I'm not ignoring what zen masters say, but just setting it aside for a full convo)

Its not that hard as far as I see...Zen masters speak of nothing...and whatever meditation is it is something, so boiled down like that we can make arguments.

2

u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

1

u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

A teacher of old gave a wrong answer and became a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. What if he hadn't given a wrong answer?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

The real question is whether zuochan can cut off conceptual thought.

Yes, I've found out on my own that it can! The more I have practiced zazen on my own along with mindfulness, I've seen that the extraneous and distracting thoughts of the mind have calmed down. Also, I can tell that the more I do this, the cleaner and more focused my mind will become over time.

5

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 14 '18

Really? Is that why the meditation worshippers have failed to produce any of their own Zen Masters?

Awkward.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Well, its not like you actually gave anyone besides the original Zen Masters a chance. To cut off Dogen and the entire Japanese lineage of Zen is just being blind to the truth... Zen lives to this very day, no matter what you say or how you try to spin it.

2

u/rockytimber Wei Mar 14 '18

To cut off Dogen and the entire Japanese lineage of Zen is just being blind to the truth

There is also the problem of being blind to what Dogen was doing, politically within the early Buddhist sects of Japan. There is the problem of what he said and did 500 years after Mazu.

Wouldin't it make more sense to give yourself the time to be able to recognize the zen that happened for the first 500 years before making strong claims about what happened later with a guy in a different country whose claims are legitimately suspect?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

You definitely have a strong point with this. I've got years of reading ahead of me to study the historical original period of Zen, but on the other hand I've already practiced and studied Zen on my own for years. When I read Dogen, his words ring true for me, and I find it disrespectful to eliminate the validity of an entire country practicing Zen.

1

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 14 '18

WanderingRonin is a multiple accounts alt_troll and self-anointed "internet guru" who stalks and harasses people who expose his self-certification scam and content brigading, including his desire to "lead the sub" (also nominated himself as a new mod) and then exposes his pattern of conduct in an attempt to attribute it to ewk. He wasn't kidding. He is only a little proud of his harassment.

9

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Alright, Ewk. You've gotten your point across. So I can't even have a discussion with you anymore without your false copy and paste job? Why don't you be a real man, and have a grown up conversation with me about things? Hiding behind this wall isn't going to do anything to stop any action of mine here, because that's not how I operate.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

You mean like an MMA fight, or head to head with philosophies and practices? hahaha

3

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '18

Wow, I nearly forgot about all of that. Now, I would love nothing more than a caged MMA match with that bastard! LMAO

2

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '18 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

→ More replies (0)

1

u/koalazen Mar 14 '18

Do you have good alternatives?

5

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 14 '18

Read Huangbo.

1

u/koalazen Mar 14 '18

Are you saying everyone who read huang bo realized the one mind he’s talking about?

6

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 14 '18

No. I'm saying we can't talk about what he is talking about unless we know what he is talking about.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

[deleted]

3

u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Mar 14 '18

Also the punctuation.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Huangbo:

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists.

That's pretty easy.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Wtf is a "One Mind"?

You mean there's no time, space, money or gravity?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

It's an arbitrary name. We can call it the Banana if you prefer, or maybe the Bahamas. Then we can all awaken and dwell in the Bahamas.

The important part is the description, the label is unimportant.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I was thinking samatha, because of the reference to motionless.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

How does sitting bring about the cessation of thought by which one realizes the unconditioned Mind?

1

u/koalazen Mar 14 '18

You tell me.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

It doesn't.

1

u/koalazen Mar 15 '18

Then what does? In my experience sitting (and observation of mind while walking, talking etc.) does naturally reduce the flow of thought. I sat many times with little or no thought.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '18

You appear to be still ensconced in physicality while the telos of Zen is extra-physical and spiritual which is beyond the effort of formal sitting. Very few if any Zen masters realized buddhatā by the effort of sitting. How does your sitting reveal that which animates your physical body?

1

u/koalazen Mar 16 '18

I don't know. You might be right. I just did Zazen and I feel I can't see one mind as well as before it. Is meditation plain evil?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '18

Zen's meaning doesn't have anything to do with physical sitting. It's closer to "intuition" which my dictionary defines this way: the act or process of coming to direct knowledge or certainty without reasoning or inferring. This is where the idea of "sudden enlightenment" comes into the picture insofar as 'direct knowledge' is sudden which goes beyond reasoning or inferring. "Just sitting" helps us to calm down since most of us tend to be frenetic at the end of the day.

1

u/koalazen Mar 16 '18

So you're saying "just sitting" can still be good for other purposes like developing calm? What is good for developping the direct knowledge of Zen? Reading huangbo regularly? I have had direct intuition but I feel it is kinda fragile and can be forgotten.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '18

Yes. To your second question, that ain't easy. What if you met a great Zen teacher and he asked you, "What moves your hands and feet?" All the reading in the world will probably not help. You're not connected with what moves your hands and feet even though they are moved! Next, to help you out he asks you, "When you do zazen, who or what breathes in and out?"

→ More replies (0)