r/HistoryMemes Descendant of Genghis Khan 5d ago

Former glory

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199 Upvotes

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u/morzikei 5d ago

As limited as suffrage was in 1800s Britain... wasn't it still better than most of the world?

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

Yeah it was better actually in terms of rights but still a pretty oppressive system in some ways to its own people.

The British empire is what happens when you actually have industry before everyone else

A great navy you’ve been developing for ages

And a functioning oligarchy that isn’t blowing itself apart in civil conflict.

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

And a functioning oligarchy that isn’t blowing itself apart in civil conflict.

A oligarchy that got pressured to reform by moderates before civil conflict could come about, atleast. It wasn't their own competence.

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u/Medeza123 5d ago edited 5d ago

Err if you see what happened in France or Russia I would say it was much more competently managed.

Or one could see what happened in the revolutions of 1848 in Europe for example.

The English had blown themselves up in the English civil war in the 1640s and had settled on a relatively stable form of government for Europe by 1688.

Most European elites dug their heels in much harder.

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u/StableSlight9168 5d ago

England was more stable but I would point out in 1848 England was creating the worst famine in 19th century Europe out of malice, greed and incompetence.

Again the UK got more of there own citizens killed than any other European power till WW1. 

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

Fair point on Ireland.

I would argue though unfortunately much of that was purposeful. And despicable.

I view Ireland as a colony for various reasons and not UK proper.

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u/StableSlight9168 5d ago

I agree with Ireland being a colony. I only point out that legally Ireland was a part of the UK and were legally citizens of the UK not subjects so.the famine is even more horrific.

Whiles in India you had a layer of distance in Ireland the British had to look MPs in the eye, look at Irish soldiers which were 30% of the army and 40% of the navy, people who I see the law were legal citizens with full rights and say "it's better for me if you starve."

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u/Medeza123 5d ago edited 5d ago

Yh that’s what they did.

I get what you’re saying but my argument wasn’t that Britains government was morally good but that compared to the continent it was relatively stable.

And more competent as well. In some ways this meant it was also more competent at evil to those it considered out groups. Any technicalities aside the Catholic Irish were never treated as properly belonging to the state.

For the people in the Britain or the Protestants in Ireland though I think it was a better than mainland Europe.

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u/jac0777 4d ago

Britain*, not just England. And the ‘greed’ was in regards to the British and Irish landlords, the main factor was unquestionably incompetence/negligence over malice. The vast vast majority of Britain didn’t actively want Irish people to starve. Their donations to Ireland during that time reflects that. I say this as an Irishman.

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

Yeah but it wasn't the oligarchy that was competent, otherwise they'd never have to be pressured to reform would they :p

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

Who was competent then and responsible for the empire? For the policy choices?

Btw I don’t like oligarchs but it’s just obvious to say the British were more competent than their European monarchical counterparts.

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

Who was competent then

The people and their voted for constituents that pressured the british conservatives to reform.

and responsible for the empire?

Oligarchs who, instead of acting out of their own competence, had to be pressured to enact democratic reforms to prevent revolution. If we left the oligarchs to their own devices britain would have had an extra revolution atleast.

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

I’m talking for the empire.

Also the people who voted for parliament were largely the upper class or upper middle class.

Only about 16% of men could vote before 1867.

About 10% by 1834

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

I’m talking for the empire.

Which was ruled by the british parliament yeah.

Also the people who voted for parliament were largely the oligarch class or upper middle class.

And without caving to broad popular pressure and left to only their own competence they'd have had a revolution...

Should i type it in my next message twice.

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

Okay I think caving was a … competent move?

It was something that on the continent did not happen as much.

The parliament literally was the seat of the oligarchs.

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

I guess it was "competent" to practically admit defeat... but I for sure wouldn't put the bulk of that competence in their hands for doing that. They didn't capitulate to noone after all.

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u/Medeza123 5d ago

No perhaps not. But they were responsible for the rise of the empire.

That happened back in a time when a minuscule percentage of the population had the vote.

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u/Lucina18 Researching [REDACTED] square 5d ago

That was more private colonizers who after setting up turned back to the wider british empire. Colonization was done more by private individuals then the wider state itself.

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