r/Genshin_Lore • u/karlthebaldhead • 7d ago
Pantalone Baizhu as a segment of Pantalone
The connection between Baizhu and Pantalone was pretty obvious from the start. But the nature of their connection is still unknown.
My theory: Baizhu is a segment of Pantalone created by Dottore. Maybe even unknowingly to Pantalone.(Probably a theory already brought up but I feel reassessment could be worth it in the light of the new quests).
I think it went down like this: Pantalone felt like his benevolence is a weakness he needs to get rid of in order to follow his plans more ruthlessly. He turns to the doctor (maybe as part of their contract) and Dottore saw an irresistible opportunity for an experiment and takes the undesirable parts of Pantalone, creating Baizhu in the process.
Baizhu and Pantalone still share their immense drive to defy rules imposed by gods. Ironically, only the benevolent part got granted the vision, which would add another dimension to his tragic character and (if pantalone knows of Baizhus existence) would even fuel more rage and resentment.
Problem to this theory: There is very little indication in the game for any of this. Maybe you guys can help gather evidence for and against this theory.
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u/Kid-Atlantic 7d ago
I don’t really see any connection between Baizhu and Pantalone besides them kind of looking alike and both of them wearing glasses.
Before Sumeru, there were people theorizing that Baizhu was the goddamn Dendro Archon of all things. I don’t know what about this guy makes people so hesitant to accept that he might be just some dude.
He’s playable now, we’ve seen a decent amount of his backstory, and there doesn’t seem to be any holes left to fill. I don’t see any reason to think he’s anything more than a talented doctor from Liyue who’s come across some supernatural shenanigans.
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u/ariesbabe666 7d ago
To be fair he was the only character with a Dendro vision up until that point lol, it makes sense that everyone was concocting crazy theories
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u/Illustrious-Snake 7d ago edited 7d ago
If their voices were meant to be the same, then they would have had the same VA across all voice-overs, just like Istaroth and Venti.
And while you're right about the immortality thing, their motivations for it are pretty different. Pantalone wanted more time to live, while Baizhu wants to break Changsheng's contract's cycle of death, saving them both.
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u/SHTPST_Tianquan 7d ago
i have an even wilder theory: they are completely unrelated and simply look somewhat similar.
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u/gonna_break_soon Aranara 7d ago
"The connection between Baizhu and Pantalone was pretty obvious from the start"
It was? Because they both have glasses?
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u/weitootired 7d ago
I had a laugh because they literally made Pantalone have really weird hair so that he looked less like Baizhu and still people keep trying.
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u/Luzis 5d ago
What I know: Both characters actively invest in expanding their lifespan, one way or the other
Baizhus coughing idle (which he says is just some chronic illness) while Pantalone had his lungs replaced bc of smoking
The first VERY weird thing baizhu does when we meet him in story is to ask for +1M mora for a medicine. Like a banker would do
Colour sheme being a mix between dottore and pantalone
Baizhu = doctor --> Dottore
What I read/didn't countercheck: Pantalone is also from Lyiue
There are crack theories from 3-5y ago pointing out some similarities between dottore and baizhu (e.g. earring, colours, etc)
There is likely more but it's 6am so I don't bother to think more about it but considering how hoyo is details-obsessed it's rather ridicolous to think there is no connection bc the list above is so much in our faces
Baizhu is basically a walking easter egg to Pantalone x Dottore and people denying that seems rather strange in comparison
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u/karlthebaldhead 4d ago
Thank you! I mean you don't have to buy my premise and my conclusion may be entirely wrong. But I was really questioning myself because for there being really no connection at all, there are simply to many parallels and deliberate choices on hoyos end to be a mere coincidence. I was really surprised that them having no connection at all was the major opinion in this thread.
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u/International-Fee771 7d ago
i dont think it makes much sense, wasnt baizhu young before he started studying medicine and later made his pact woith changsheng? while pantalone is an old man kept alive with dottores special immortality juice
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u/Illustrious-Snake 7d ago edited 7d ago
This theory falls apart when you consider the nature of a Segment though:
Il Dottore: "I," that is, Zandik, created Segments of various ages in his later years. To achieve this, he had to freeze time and part with a portion of his soul.
Dottore: Zandik turned to Khaenri'ahn technology and successfully created his Segments
Wanderer: You should be able to tell that I'm not human, right?
Marionette: Yeah, I noticed. The technology, though... Seems pretty ancient. Very different from Fontaine's. It's a completely different system.
(Wanderer): Khaenri'ahn, to be precise. I'm what they would have called a puppet.Il Dottore: And after that, I concluded that there was no more effective plan than directly splitting the soul. Once the soul is transferred out, you will find that creating a physical body is far simpler than creating a puppet.
Dottore's Segments are puppets (Khaenri'ahn technology) that contain a piece of Zandik's soul and are him from the past, frozen at a certain age.
Baizhu is human, not a puppet, and I believe we can safely rule out he isn't a past version of Pantalone either. They may look vaguely similar at a first glance, but that's all.
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u/MiyukiAkibara Oratrice Mecanique d'Analyse Cardinale 6d ago
I feel like since this patch confirms that Dottore is dead so many times, people want to desperately grasp on anything that could be his lingering shadow. They even had Collei got rid of her God's Remains that Dottore put inside her, the story itself wants to purge Dottore from everyone.
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u/AlienZak 7d ago
Perhaps irminsul ran out of possible fate templates and had to reuse the same one for baizhu and pantalone, lol
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u/AudieMurphy135 Teyvat has its own laws 7d ago edited 7d ago
Unironically could be true. If you read through a ton of stories throughout the game, you'll begin to notice certain repeating archetypes of characters. This is probably a result of Teyvat's "cyclical" nature. This also means that potentially anything could be an "allegory", even if it wasn't intentionally written as such from an in-universe perspective, including works of fiction.
A perfect example of this is Legend of the Lone Sword and The Headless Coquitao. The two are likely unrelated, as the former is a book from Liyue, while the latter is from Natlan, whose description says that "the stories within are older than the tribe itself" (the tribe being the Masters of the Night-Wind). Both stories take place on a windy and rainy night, both main characters strike their opponent on the head, and both feature a woman wearing a skirt - one "azure", and the other "jade", which are likely the same color in this instance, as there are several depictions of icy-blue jade in the game (e.g. Fractured Halo, Shivada Jade, and Bloodjade Branch, as a few examples).
This would explain some of the similarities between Baizhu and Pantalone, such as (6.6 AQ spoilers) both of them seeking immortality.
In ancient Fontaine, some thought that Fortuna, which ruled the world, was woven from countless fibers, like the strings of a harp. Strings that resonate with the majestic music would bring happiness to all, while discord would destroy the fabric of the universe.
If "fate" is a metaphorical musical instrument, then it's almost like the Sleepy Principles has their playlist set on repeat while they're having their nappy time, lol.
Anyways, here's the start of a list that I'm compiling of the archetypes I've found so far, along with some examples:
"The Nameless" - These are characters that are referred to as "nameless". This may be based off of the Knight of the Swan legend ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_of_the_Swan ), which is related to Richard Wagner's operas Lohengrin and Parsifal. Another work of Wagner's (unrelated to this category) that Genshin takes inspiration from is Der Ring des Nibelungen.
- Voyager - as Seutervoinen, "unnamed youth".
- Saarelainen - Third Descender, "unspeakable name".
- Mi Mir - Legend of the Shattered Halberd, "nameless thief".
- "nameless swordsman" - Legend of the Lone Sword, Jin the 72nd's nemesis.
- Nameless Bard - Whom Venti's appearance is based off of.
- Wandering Knight - First Knight of Boreas, "nameless knight".
- Parsifal - "The scoundrel who gave up his family name..."
"The Noble Thief" - Referred to as a "thief", and is usually described in ways such as "noble", "brave", "kind", and "valiant". Their stories typically involve an object that is analogous to the SAMPO in some way, or the SAMPO itself.
- Reed Miller - "master thief", SAMPO
- Mi Mir - "nameless thief", "benevolent", Laevatain
- Yupanqui - "firethief", "brave", Turnfire
- Parsifal - "phantom thief" / "noble thief", "chivalric", The Alley Flash ("A mighty and noble longsword that bursts forth like a flash of light from the depths of the night.")
"The Star-Crossed Lovers" - Involves two lovers who are doomed to be separated, or a character whose love is unrequited.
- Voyager and Koitar
- Ajax and Snegurochka
- Saarelainen and Pakkasukko's daughter
- Deshret and Nabu Malikata
- Parsifal and the Blue-eyed Spear Witch
- Roland and the "Maiden Beloved"
- Rostam and Signora
"The Guardian and the Nemesis" - This type of story involves the main character seeking and/or battling either a "guardian" or "nemesis".
- Jin and the nameless swordsman - Legend of the Lone Sword
- Coquitao and Nagual - The Headless Coquitao
- The Green Samurai and Pale Samurai - Princess Mina of the Fallen Nation
- Knight of the Golden Bough and the Jack Frost King - Golden Frostbound Oath
- Ajax and the dragon (the "solemn and silent king") - Ballad of the Fjords
"The Dying Duo" - A pair - sometimes twins - who both die, or are mentioned to have died at some point in the story.
- Jin's "master" and "junior" - Legend of the Lone Sword
- The fox and the turtle - The Boar Princess
- "Martial artists" - Legend of the Shattered Halberd
- Kame Twins - The Headless Coquitao
- Ixquieh and Ahpub (twins) - Ring of Yaxche
- Atawallpa and Waskar (twins) - Crownless Crown
"The Mad King" - A ruler who is depicted as some combination of mad, insane, cruel, and capricious, and who is eventually rebelled against.
- The Heavenly Principles
- Irmin
- Och-Kan
- Decarabian
"The Headless/Crownless King" - I haven't investigated this one fully, but there may be an implication here of them being the "true" ruler of something.
- The Headless Coquitao - Coquitao is Zapotec for "king".
- Mi Mir - Based off of Mimir from Norse mythology, who was beheaded.
- The Jack Frost King - Golden Frostbound Oath - "...the knight's blade rose in a final arc and struck the crown from the fae king's brow."
- Diluc - "In a way, he is the uncrowned king of Mondstadt."
- Beidou - "Uncrowned Lord of the Ocean"
- Viridescent - "Uncrowned queen of hunters"
- Lianca - "uncrowned princess"
- Prospect of the Brave - "Much later, one of them was named a "lion," and became a crownless king at the head of many knights. The other became a "wolf," supporting his friend from the shadows, and running affairs of state."
- King Miscislav - Struck in the head by the Belyi Tsar's spear. His skull is housed in Zapolyarny Palace.
"The Absent King and the Mad Regent" - Involves a nation or place being ruled by someone who is acting in place of their indisposed leader. Just like "The Mad King" archetype, they are some combination of mad, insane, cruel, and capricious.
- Remus and Phobos
- Ei and the Raiden Shogun
- Asmoday and Melanta
- Venti and the Mondstadt aristocracy
A few other notes:
Many of these stories characters also involve people who are either missing an eye or are blinded. One thing I have found over time is that mentions of a missing eye, one eye, or an eyepatch seem to have some sort of relation (usually through parallels or allegory) to one of the first three Descenders, and they also frequently have references or similarities to Odin from Norse mythology.
Many of the main characters have a stick-like object (spear, sword, branch, club, wand, scepter, etc.), and it is sometimes described as broken/inert, and/or associated with fire in some way, and is sometimes used to strike their oponnent in the head. I believe this object may be an analogue for a depleted SAMPO, or possibly its Collaborative Control Module, as it is almost always a stick-like object and not an "orb". There are several things that lead me to suspect that the SAMPO+CCM when paired together are something akin to the Caduceus, Rod of Asclepius, a shepherd's crook (in the context of Jesus being "the Good Shepherd"), the Staff of Moses, Aaron's rod, Gungnir, etc.
- I also highly suspect that "Mistilteinn" as part of Project Stuzha is related to this in some way.
Many of the main characters also undergo a personality shift, either going from noble, brave, kind, chivalrous, etc., to becoming cold, cruel, heartless, and violent - or vice versa.
There is also sometimes a pact, oath, debt, or contract involved, and sometimes mentions or references to "gold".
There are several instances of the main character becoming a cat. For example, Nicole's fairy tale of Nicola Coco involves the youth (likely a stand-in for Voyager) turning into a cat at the end, and Coquitao turns into a "black spirit leopard". Many of these stories include the main character, guardian, or nemesis sitting atop Irminsul, which may be related to how cats like to climb trees (or high objects in general) to get a better vantage point, and the repeated themes of "shapeshifting" may be related to Voyager's ability to possess people. Voyager was sitting atop Irminsul when they first met Koitar.
I'm sure by now, you may have noticed a lot of similarities and connections between the categories. I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these stories can be pieced together like a puzzle in order to build a larger narrative. Specifically, I think these may be involved in the story of the King of Midsommar Oak and the King of Winter Icelea, and I highly suspect that the "King of Midsommar Oak" is Saarelainen, the Third Descender (who may have been Ajax).
Here's something I've been putting together regarding these stories (Note: I'm still in the process of copying everything from my lore notes into Obsidian, so it isn't quite finished yet. There should still be enough there for you to get the gist of what I'm going with, though):
https://i.postimg.cc/FhDG1tF1/Hidden-Story-5.png
Edit: Perhaps that one blue-horned lizard is one of the shapeshifters in this story. 10th Harbinger? Filipov, perhaps? Or maybe even the Tsaritsa herself, if my theory about her being possessed by Koitar is correct, lol. :thonk:
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u/dear_readerxx 5d ago
It sounds like a reach also pantalone definitely knows of his existence, how would he not? His bank is right there at the central of liyue and the bubu pharmacy is not far from the bank too, Baizhu is just another character that happens to share some similarities to pantalone he's not related to him in any way
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u/_LonePilgrim_ 7d ago
It will be funny if they turn out to be just distant relatives\ (small possibility to be one of those "forced orphans", who ended up in Snezhnaya).
But honestly, parallels with health condition and searching for "elixir of live" is kinda suspiciously similar.
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u/atomicgin Spina Di Rosula 6d ago
I’d like to think Pantalone is an ancestor of Baizhu, since now we know Pantalone is a few hundred years old. I think that could be interesting.
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u/Onetwodash 5d ago
Two coughing characters that gain pseudo-immortality from whitr garbed red eyed sources and have never been seen in a room together...
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u/Main_coorp 7d ago
Could be funny but i don't think it's true Because during the 6.6 Archon quest Dottore say to Pantalone that he won't last long before dying since if Dottore died no who would be able to produce the immortal elixir and i think that the contract between Il Dottore and Pantalone was that Pantalone Will finance Dottore experiment as long as he give the elixir to Pantalone thus may have been done a long time ago ( not really sure if this was a long time ago tho but i don't want to calcul so if someone can.
Dottore was still quite young when he met the King ibis for the first time and the contract have been seald the day he turned 85. So if we know when the Dottore's ibis meeting happens we could calculate )
So if my points are true it will implies that Pantalone might be far odler than Baizhu
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u/Illustrious-Snake 7d ago
Pantalone is now 400+ years old, which we know from Anomalous Tree Marrow I. He was at least 13 years younger than OG Zandik.
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u/Asuru_ 7d ago
I would love to all Pantalone and Baizhu theories to be true but for that Hoyo would have to give a single fuck about Baizhu as a character. But he is Qiqi's Father first, Hutao's "enemy" second, and then Chengseng's contract.
I miss the Baizhu is the dendro archon theories... It was stupid and nonsense but at least he had something going on for him...
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u/karlthebaldhead 7d ago
Maybe one piece of evidence in the latest quest:
Il Dottore talking about his segments to Regrator.
Il Dottore: You too might ask yourself, which stage of your life you want to be preserved at? The day your business failed? Or the day you were framed by a gang and sold off to a medical lab as test subject?
Regrator:... We needn't dregde up the past.
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u/Illustrious-Snake 7d ago
Or Pantalone just didn't want to talk about the tragic past that Dottore just brought up..?
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u/karlthebaldhead 7d ago
https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Baizhu/Profile
I read the Baizhu wiki entry. Another hint: "Before the contract [...] his eyes were dark pink." Guess whose eyes have a very dark pinkish tone..
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u/crowgift 7d ago
his eyes are purple and not pink lol. we saw baizhus 'pink' eyes in his story quest and it's nothing comparable to pantalone's eyes
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u/Jaquemart 7d ago
We know that Baizhu had parents in Liyue. They died of a plague "when Baizhu was young".