r/zen • u/[deleted] • Mar 14 '18

Huang Po: Motionless Mind

Not til your thoughts cease their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

  • Huang Po
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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Make no distinction between now and "then" and you realize you've been on the path the entire time.

The decision is yours, whether or not you want to take that first step.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

If you can take a ‘first step’ towards no thought, and no thought leads you to the gate...then you are really just saying that the first step is towards the gate...which Huangbo says is a no go.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

No, the first step is already the Way. You believe that the gate or the Way is a destination, when its clearly not-- It's the journey.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Could you explain more about the journey being the destination (not trying to be snarky)?

u/mackowski

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Butting in.

In Zen Buddhism the journey is definitely not the destination, as the destination is an unbinding, Nibbana, a total freedom, where the journey requires practice, study, and change in the manner of purging your mind of its defilements and delusions.

People here often confuse the destination for the journey, which is why they are drug addicts living in their mom's basement but think they're on the cusp of enlightenment. Hilarious.

The journey is work. The destination is no more work.

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u/essentialsalts Dionysiac Monster & Annihilator of Morality Mar 14 '18

Cusp of enlightenment?

This may be exciting news for you then... there are plenty of drug addicts living in their mom’s basement who have acquired anuttara-samyaksambodhi... on this very forum!

If you weren’t such a religious troll maybe you could learn some enlightenment tips from them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '18

lmao

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

I don’t understand this:

people often confuse the destination for the journey

Additionally as a side note, didn’t you tell me that you believed the journey is the destination the other day?

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

People often look at Zen teachers describing what the destination looks like and they think that's what the journey looks like. To use the Michael Jordan example, imagine him saying "when I play I just let go of all thought and let my body do the work." That is mastery of his skill, but is not how you master the skill. It's the destination, not the journey.

I am certain that Zen masters also got this confused and often taught the destination as the journey, but in these cases they were teaching monks who had been practicing for a long time, so their audience at least had a background in skill-building before being taught destination-talk.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Hmm, so you’ve suggested that when zen Masters speak against your journey theory they were actually confused

There is not really anything I can say to that

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

Let me put it this way. Some teachers make emphases to certain students that would be inappropriate for other audiences.

Is it beyond you that a Zen teacher can be confused? Do you see them as infallible? Are the lineage texts your scripture? Is ewk your prophet?

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

If all else fails use ewk as an argument! Catch ya later I guess I ain’t playing that game too tired right now

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Well, he is the author of your reverence for those people, is he not? You learnt it from him. Admit that much.

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u/TFnarcon9 Mar 14 '18

Thinking that pohw is not qualified to say when zen Masters are confused =\= reverence.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Oh it's entirely allowed and appropriate to disagree with certain points by certain authors, do you agree? If not, is this an absolutist religion?

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u/hookdump 🦄🌈可怕大愚盲瞑禪師🌈🦄 Mar 14 '18

I am certain that Zen masters also got this confused and often taught the destination as the journey, but in these cases they were teaching monks who had been practicing for a long time, so their audience at least had a background in skill-building before being taught destination-talk.

Hmmmm... I disagree with this.

The way I see it, Zen Masters didn't teach anything about journey nor destination, but instead, slapped people and told them that they're already where they need to be. (Which taken literally could be seen as equating journey and destination, but no, it's subtler than that).

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u/WreCK_ed Mar 16 '18

What is the subtlety you found in that?

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u/hookdump 🦄🌈可怕大愚盲瞑禪師🌈🦄 Mar 16 '18

That there is no need to do a journey anywhere.

It will sound empty and cliche if you don’t really realize it, though.

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u/WreCK_ed Mar 16 '18

In the sense that it's all already here, waiting to be seen? That still leaves you with a search, which is pretty much the same as a journey...

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u/hookdump 🦄🌈可怕大愚盲瞑禪師🌈🦄 Mar 16 '18

Here’s some discussion about the subtlety of this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/84to4n/comment/dvsqpei?context=99

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Additionally as a side note, didn’t you tell me that you believed the journey is the destination the other day?

The destination is not to be clung to, nor is the journey. One is not better than the other. Everything is 10/10 good from start to finish.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I disagree. Sitting in Zazen, goalless, without any disturbance, without any conceptual discrimination, is already the Way. Nirvana is right here before our eyes, like low hanging fruit. Nirvana isn’t a goal, it’s something that is already possessed in our Buddha Nature.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Why do Zazen?

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Because it is an expression of original nature. In that posture, with no intent whatsoever, we paradoxically find what we had been searching for. Kind of like leaving glasses on your head and going around the house searching for them.

Seeking enlightenment is only good insofar that you give up seeking after you have seen your true nature. Then everything you do is Zazen.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

we paradoxically find what we had been searching for

There's your goal.

We don't disagree. I sit Zazen for a reason, though.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

I think that’s what makes Zazen hard, you know. Trying to get something out of it, treating it as a control mechanism of self-discipline. To each their own, though. If it works for you by all means. Hell, you can even practice Zazen and be a Jesuit priest. The meal is already cooked.

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u/koalazen Mar 14 '18

Have you seen your true nature? I know zazen feels good, but to say it is the ultimate I feel you should really understand your original nature well. If the true nature is perfect why do zazen? Farting or sleeping is as good no?

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u/koalazen Mar 15 '18

What is my true nature?

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '18

No nature.

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u/koalazen Mar 15 '18

But there is something, otherwise we wouldn't be talking. Are you saying there is no nature to all this?

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '18

What is my original face?

Mountains and waters.

As soon as you call it into existence, it disappears. Once you strive to reach it, it will always remain beyond one's grasp.

No nature, Buddha Nature, Enlightenment, Mu-- these are all teaching words. The Way is beyond language. It is beyond discussion. What we are talking about here is merely semantics, but the truth of Zen is always in the practice.

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u/koalazen Mar 15 '18 edited Mar 16 '18

It cannot disappear. It is always in the practice, but also outside. Don't make a distinction practice/non practice.

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u/HakuninMatata Mar 14 '18

I disagree. In non-Zen Buddhism, the journey is not the destination. Zen is that form of Buddhism characterised by the journey being the destination. That doesn't mean doing no work, though.

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '18

Zen is that form of Buddhism characterised by the journey being the destination.

More so than other sects, but not absolutely IMO.

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u/Kingrap1441 Mar 14 '18

I feel like you shouldn't be judging other parts of the onemind for their shortcomings. If you're spending your free time the same way in the same place are you really any better then them for their situation? Drugs are the same as any other worldly possession, how long can you go without Reddit? Aren't you an addict too?

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u/WreCK_ed Mar 15 '18

Buddha continued meditating and practicing rigorously after enlightenment. The destination includes being comfortable while striving and working, not seeking to reach a place of rest because of aversion to work.

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u/[deleted] Mar 16 '18

He only meditated one hour per day after becoming enlightened. But yes, there is still practice after enlightenment. I'm open to that.