r/zen • u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] • 19d ago
AI Zen Master
Since it's so easy to drop a Zen text or even multiple Zen texts into an llm and ask questions that the llm will answer from the standpoint of the text?
* www.reddit.com/r/Zen/wiki/getstarted
Doesn't it make sense that there would be a lot less confusion and a lot more interesting conversations??
Plus, if you have an llm answer questions about the texts then who better to explain why Zazen Shinto-Buddhism and Alan Epstein Watts are not part of the tradition?
Serious question.
Where are all my AI Zen Masters at?
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u/LegeApps New Account 18d ago edited 17d ago
Word must be getting around
https://github.com/LegeApp/SinoRAG
I made this program for this purpose, structured tools for Zen/Buddhist/Chinese classic corpus. RAG stands for retrieval augmented generation, which is basically a means of allowing LLM agents to access information more efficiently when constructing responses. The program itself creates databases from inputs, and offers 20+ research tools to parse those databases.
Quickstart, get the windows release, or build from source if not on Windows; copy the exe to its own folder.
download the full cbeta corpus here - https://github.com/cbeta-org/xml-p5/archive/refs/heads/master.zip
extract that to a folder named "data" in the folder you created for sinorag. since you might want to add other corpora later.
open a command prompt. type "sinorag ingest cbeta {file path of above cbeta extract}". It will now convert the cbeta corpus to Arrow parquet format and then create a few basic indexes to search from. Then you can run "sinorag indexes lexical" and generate two additional more sophisticated indexes that take about 5 minutes each to build.
Then you're ready. Use the LLM of your choice (OpenCode is free and has free models to use) and come up with a question to ask it, and tell it to figure out the tools in sinorag, which are designed to be figured out quickly by an LLM agent. Tell it to generate a research report and/or a diagram and see how it does.
The agent is strongly cautioned by the tools to only make a claim if it can be supported by cited evidence, and any evidence it does output will be cited with the tools. This nearly prevents it from making anything up, or telling you what you want to hear.
Example output from the Wansong meditation question from this thread -
Research Report: Does Wansong Say Anywhere Whether to Meditate or Not to Meditate in a Zen Context?
Question: Does Wansong (萬松行秀, 1166–1246) say anywhere in the Book of Serenity (從容庵錄, T48n2004), or in any other document preserved in the corpus, whether to meditate or not to meditate in a Zen context?
Answer: No. Across the full range of texts authored by or attributed to Wansong in this corpus, he gives no explicit instruction to meditate or not to meditate. His teaching method is koan commentary and intellectual-spiritual inquiry. The nearest he comes is a rejection of both extremes — neither motion (activity) nor stillness (sitting) is the answer.
1. Corpus Searches — Method
All searches were run against the SinoRAG corpus (CBETA + supplemental canons) using the
sinorag.exe tool-call searchtool with exact-phrase matching.Search terms applied to T48n2004 (萬松老人評唱天童覺和尚頌古從容庵錄 = Book of Serenity):
Broader search for 萬松老人 / 萬松行秀 across entire corpus:
2. Detailed Findings
2a. The Book of Serenity (從容庵錄, T48n2004)
This is Wansong's major work: a评唱 (critical commentary) on Hongzhi Zhengjue's (天童正覺)一百頌古. It contains 100 cases, each with Hongzhi's verse and Wansong's commentary.
Only one meditation-related passage exists:
Wansong here is quoting Master Wuyun's Sitting Meditation Admonition (坐禪箴), not delivering his own teaching. The original 坐禪箴 is found in T51n2076 (景德傳燈錄) and attributed to 杭州五雲和尚, not Wansong.
On the topic of wall-gazing/meditation posture, Wansong says explicitly:
Translation: "I, Wansong, have never faced the wall. What text are you lot coming to look for?" This is a deliberate distancing from the practice of wall-gazing meditation (面壁).
2b. Wansong's Recorded Sayings (語錄)
The most complete collection of Wansong's teaching statements is in X82n1571:
示眾：動則埋身千丈，不動則當處生苗。直須兩頭撒開，中間放下，更買草鞋行脚始得。 — X82n1571, passage X/X82/X82n1571.xml#pX82p0255c0612
Translation: "If you move, you bury yourself a thousand丈 deep. If you don't move, sprouts grow right where you are. You must let go of both ends, drop the middle, buy straw sandals, and start traveling."
This is as close as Wansong comes to addressing the meditation question, and it rejects both alternatives: neither sitting still (不動) nor active practice (動) is the path. Both extremes are traps.
示眾：去即留住，住即遣去。不去不住，渠無國土。何處逢渠，在在處處。 — X82n1571, same passage
Translation: "If you go, you're held back. If you stay, you're sent away. Neither going nor staying — he has no country. Where do you meet him? Everywhere, in every place."
Asked about stopping deluded thoughts (a meditation goal):
Translation: "Disciple Quanzhen asked: 'For over thirty years I've been unable to suppress my deluded mind. Please, Master, give me a means.' The Master said: 'How long has your deluded mind existed? Was there originally a deluded mind or not? As for this deluded mind — is cutting it off the answer? Or is not cutting it off the answer?' Quanzhen heard this, was greatly enlightened, bowed, and left."
Wansong's approach here is inquiry-based, not practice-based. He does not prescribe sitting meditation, mantras, or any technique. Instead he questions the very framework of "deluded mind" that needs to be "suppressed."
2c. Wansong's Own Enlightenment Story
The biography in B16n0088 and X82n1571 records:
His awakening came through intensive investigation of koans (看話), not through sitting meditation. Another version records:
His enlightenment was triggered by a chicken flying and calling — a spontaneous event, not a meditation practice.
2d. Works Wansong Authored That Are Not in the Corpus
The biography lists these works, none of which are available in this corpus for direct searching:
The 請益錄 exists in the corpus (X67n1307) but only as a table of contents; the actual text is not loaded.
3. Conclusion
The question remains open because Wansong's lost works (祖燈錄, 鳴道集, 辨宗說, etc.) are not available in this corpus. A definitive answer would require locating those texts.
4. Key Source References