r/vexillology • u/fr1ri • Apr 27 '26
Discussion During military parades, Serbia uses both royalist and socialist flags
I've noticed that here in Serbia the army will go through essentially the entire history of the flag from the first uprising to now
Meaning
They're carrying flags associated with both the Kingdom of Serbia and Socialist Yugoslavia
I thought this was pretty neat as here fans of either of those 2 often don't really like the other, so I wanted to share
And I wonder
Do other countries do this type of thing too?
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u/nim_opet Apr 28 '26
Yes; the country was liberated under both flags at different times. Canada regularly flies the Union Jack at military events as all military engagements until 1947 were under that flag.
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u/Austerlitz2310 Apr 28 '26
Exactly this. Idk why this is out of the ordinary for people
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u/greenest_alien Apr 28 '26
Russia does this, recently flying on giant masts at St. Petersburg the Soviet, the imperial and the republic flag all at once, completely oblivious.
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Yeah, there's definitely a massive, historical contradiction in doing that. Both the Imperial and currnet Russian Federation flag (Also previously imperial) were banned according to Soviet laws and Stalin even executed several Russian communist members during the Leningrad affair for "promoting Russian nationalism" because one of them proposed changing the RSFSR's flag to the Tsarist imperial tri-color superimposed with a hammer & sickle.
Both flags were heavily despised by the USSR and vice versa.
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u/ALMAZ157 Apr 28 '26
Well, all 3 are part of historical nation of Russia, even if one time they tried to cut it out, in reality all of them were still “Russia”
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
The USSR did not identify itself as "Russia"
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u/ALMAZ157 Apr 28 '26
Modern Russia is their successor state
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u/Sea_Square638 Apr 28 '26
Russia is the successor to the RSFSR. Not the USSR.
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u/ALMAZ157 Apr 28 '26
She is both, per Alma-Aty accords, other Soviet states (excluding Baltics) recognized Russia as being successor state to the USSR
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan are all equal successor states to the Soviet Union as per the 1994 Lisbon treaty, which they continued, and agreed, to assume the obligations of the Soviet Union's START treaty.
A successor state is a state that obtains a completely new legal personality.
Russia is a continuator state of the RSFSR.
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u/Snoo63 Apr 28 '26
How come they aren't all on the UN Security Council, then?
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Because Russia assumed the USSR's seat, no one else protested at the time, and there was a huge legal limbo in regards to who gets what because of how chaotic the collapse of the USSR was.
Technically, Russia should've obtained a new UN membership.
What's even more funny, Ukraine has actually gone to the lengths to claim Russia's UN membership is "illegal" because it shouldn't have been allowed to take the USSR's membership.
Ukraine and Belarus still retain their Soviet era UN membership from 1945.
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u/Gumgi24 Berber Apr 28 '26
Bro it's literally recognised by every country on the planet that Russia is the successor state of the USSR
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u/GalaXion24 Apr 28 '26
For legalistic, contractual reasons maybe, but if John Smith has 3 heirs and one of them inherits his business and most of his property, while also inheriting his debts and obligations, this doesn't make John Smith Jr. the same as John Smith Sr. nor does it make John Smith Jr. more of a son of John Smith than Sam Smith.
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u/Remote-Cow5867 Apr 28 '26
Baltics states don't recognize Russia as succesor state of USSR? Don't they hate Russia for what USSR did to them?
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u/Nahcep Apr 28 '26
Baltics don't recognize themselves as members of the Soviet Union, so they saw no reason in participating in something that didn't concern them
The Soviet republics declared the Russian Federation as the successor state to the Soviet Union, so they accepted is as fait accompli
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
No, you got it confused, they didn't accept Russia as a successor state to the Soviet Union, they accepted Russia taking over the USSR's seat in the UN security council, no one protested it.
It's a common misconception.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Legally its succesor. KGB became FSB etc. etc. Same is for SFRY and Republic of Serbia. Someone can keep legal succession if others refuse.
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u/JohnyIthe3rd Austria Apr 28 '26
Afaik all Yugoslav Republics agreed to be the sucessor states to the SFRY, thats why nobody recognised the Federal Republic of Yugoslavias claim of sole sucession
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
No they agreed to share debt. Only FR Yugoslavia accepted and kept oun seat etc. rest of new countries re-applied
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u/JohnyIthe3rd Austria Apr 28 '26
the FRY wasn't allowed to take its UN seat from 92-2000 due to them trying go claim sole sucession to Yugoslavia
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u/nautilus2000 Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
This isn't accurate at all. All of the former republics are equal official successors of SFR Yugoslavia based on the 2004 agreement (it's literally the first sentence of the agreement). Serbia and Montenegro (then called FR Yugoslavia) claimed to be the successor from 1991 to 2001 but gave that up as part of the 2004 agreement and it was never accepted by the other states.
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2001/06/20010629%2001-33%20PM/Ch_XXIX_01p.pdf
"Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Macedonia, the Republic of Slovenia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, being in sovereign equality the five successor States to the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia..."
Your statement about the KGB in the USSR is also inaccurate as the KGB in each former Republic became its own successor service, not just the FSB in Russia. For example, in Ukraine the KGB became the SBU and in Uzbekistan it became the SSS.
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
The KGB was partitioned into multiple security agencies, the KGB also became the Ukrainian SBU.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Acceptable, but FSB has most or achives, people and see certain agent from Dresden even became prime minster / president / prime minister and so on 😃
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Well the former president of Lithuania (Which is very anti-USSR) was ironically a former member of the Communist Party of the USSR, which was incredibly hard to get into.
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Russia is actually a continuator, not a successor to the RSFSR.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Check facts and you ll see you are wrong
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
You should check the fact, the Lisbon protocol established Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan as successor states to the USSR.
You don't know the difference between Successor and Continuator
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Call it continuator, but most of previous legislative, insignia, institutions etc. not just debts, etc. are in Russia. So its true successor. same happaned in ex Yu where Serbia is real successor.,
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u/Sea_Square638 Apr 28 '26
Sorry, I don’t know the difference between the two. I’m not native in English
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u/juksbox Apr 28 '26
How often you have seen Russians celebrating their "RSFSR" past and not USSR past?
How often have you seen former Soviet republics celebrate their Soviet republic past, or their USSR past in general?
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u/Rustycaddy Apr 28 '26
Russia celebrates "Russia day" every year on June 12, which is the the day when the RSFSR became a sovereign republic in 1990.
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u/Mirabeaux1789 Esperanto • Quebec Apr 28 '26
Legally yes, but spiritually it’s more complex than this
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u/int23_t Apr 29 '26
Even legally no. Legally Kazakhstan is the successor as rhey are the last to leave USSR, Kazakhstan left after Russia itself did
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u/jalovisko Apr 28 '26
The anthem of the USSR begins with "An unbreakable union of free republics, The Great Rus' has sealed forever."
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u/nautilus2000 Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Rus in Russian means the equivalent of domain or reign, it doesn't refer to Russia. In fact the name Russia comes from the word Rus, not the other way around.
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u/BiggerStickDiplomacy Hurricane Warning Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
I wonder if the thousands of non-Russian citizens in the Soviet Union forced to speak Russian and forcibly transfer their wealth and influence to Moscow would agree with that sentiment.
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Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
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u/FizzleFuzzle Vietnam Apr 28 '26
Guess all of Europe is American with that logic.
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u/BiggerStickDiplomacy Hurricane Warning Apr 28 '26
I don't recall there ever being NATO enforced ethnic relocations, genocides, and cultural re-education in Europe, but by all means continue to point at the big bad USA whenever anyone has legitimate criticism of the Soviet Union, a nation whose only allies were ones they had to use force to keep.
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u/DaniAL_AFK Apr 28 '26
What country are you from? You don't think the Germans got relocations and cultural re education? How about Italy and Italians in the former Yugoslavia?
They surely needed some form of cultural re education that's not disputed, they invented fascism after all, but it DEFINITELY happened. My school history book was horribly partisan towards the US. Oh I almost forgot I'm speaking English btw, which is mandated to get every university degree here, and in Germany even for school diploma. I don't particularly hate this but it's undeniably a form of control, we can say it's because of the British empire I guess, debatable.
Genocides... Well not until last two years they didn't, and it's not in Europe, fair play to them. But I think we got all the boxes checked by now.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Yes, and all Germans, Irish and Poilish in US are happy to speak English.,
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u/nutdo1 Apr 29 '26
There’s a big difference between someone voluntarily immigrating to another country in hopes of better opportunities and assimilating versus assimilating because you were forcibly conquered by another country.
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u/rasvoja Apr 29 '26
Yeah. US forcefully assimilated Hawai, Alaska, all colonies from natives and parts of Latin America. True?
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
No, but so is Russia in fact Russian federation. Both were federal states. Like outsiders see US as one country, while its federation. Or Yugoslavia was
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u/JosedeNueces Apr 28 '26
I listened to Russian nationalists back during the Donbass war and one talking point was that the Russian Empire, USSR and Russian Federation were just evolutions of the Russian Nation, like the Nazis subscribed to the same ideology hence declaring themsleves the Third Reich of the German Empire, with the 1st Reich being the Holy Roman Empire and the 2nd Reich being the German Empire.
The biggest irony is the parallel between them as each evolution ended in being smaller than the last. The collapse of the Holy Roman Empire lost Switzerland, Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and Czechoslovakia, the Collapse of the German Empire lost Alsace–Lorraine, and the collapse of the Third Reich lost East Prussia.
The collapse of the Russian Empire lost Poland and Finland, and the collapse of the USSR lost the Baltics, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajian and Central Asia.
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u/Koino_ United Nations Honor Flag (Four Freedoms Flag) Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
Many Russians viewed the USSR as essentially Russia in a transformed and expanded form.
Soviet propaganda consistently emphasized Russians as the leading nationality, portraying them as guiding other, smaller nations that were implicitly framed as less advanced.
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u/LineOfInquiry Albany Apr 28 '26
They were all extremely different views of what Russia is and should be however. A Russian monarchist would have far more in common with a German monarchist than they would with a Russian communist
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u/bagix Apr 29 '26
there is no contradiction, we fly them as a sign of our diverse and long history, ideology changes, Russia remains. That’s the logic behind flying all of the flags. All nations should be proud of their heritage and history, despite dark times.
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u/Metsenat Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Stalin even executed several Russian communist members <***> for "promoting Russian nationalism" because one of them proposed changing the RSFSR's flag to the Tsarist imperial tri-color superimposed with a hammer & sickle
That's false.
The person you are talking about was shot due to the corruption charges (although the flag that he proposed was geniuenly dreadfull).
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u/Ricochet_skin Apr 28 '26
Slavic nationalism is... Very interesting politically speaking...
Center-Left economics and strict Auth-Right social values.
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u/midnight_rum Apr 28 '26
That's pretty much how nationalism works everywhere, only exceptions being Anglo-Saxon countries for some reason
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Apr 28 '26 edited 11d ago
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u/midnight_rum Apr 28 '26
Angloids are a nation of shopkeepers, just as Napoleon said. Caring for their people is against their national values
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u/NickTM Sweden Apr 28 '26
Napoleon probably didn't say that, but if he did it's a weird accusation to level against the country that ended up with the first comprehensive, universal free healthcare service in the western world. One suspects it may have been motivated more by his annoyance at continued British resistance to his machinations rather than an actual assessment of British socio-political character.
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u/justcreateanaccount Apr 28 '26
It is almost a socialist nationalism.
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u/Ricochet_skin Apr 28 '26
That reminds me of a certain Austrian dude from the 30's that was very influenced by Georges Sorel...
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u/metfan1964nyc Apr 28 '26
Like every country, when when people are unhappy with their government, those governments try to tap into patriotism and tales of historic victories, and it usually works for a little while.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Its NOT oblivious. When celebrating e.g. WW2 victory norm is to display the winners flag, which is USSR
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u/greenest_alien Apr 28 '26
But also flag of tsarist russia flies next to it, which eventually tried to kill everyone involved in the project of making USSR, just like USSR attempted to kill everyone involved in preserving tsarist russia.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
Its all part of one nation timeline. Should I pull out US flag of 13 colonies? Without Mexico and California? Without invaded countries like Havai? Confederate flag?
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u/greenest_alien Apr 28 '26
I don't think people flying 13 colonies tried to murder people flying 14 states flag. You're right though, nobody entrusted with official state function is going to fly union and CSA flags alongside.
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
But people do for RnR or white power Well us did killed natives, drove out mexicans, expanded to cuba and Hawaii. Beside vikings and mongols, most agressive society faking home of democracy in name of extreme capitalism. Money a dem God
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u/superdupercereal2 Apr 28 '26
So? There were good things about both nations that a current Russky would enjoy. Certain people during the Soviet years would have looked fondly upon their time in the Russian Empire and people currently in the Russian Federation look back fondly on their time during the Soviet Union.
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u/kostasnotkolsas Greece Apr 28 '26
I don't think any worker in Petrograd, serf in the south or soilder in the front would have good memories of the tsarist years
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
True dat but Putin is trying to ride on pro monarchism with him being wannabe new Romanov
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u/Platinirius Apr 28 '26
Makes sense Russia is an ideological hydra trying to coerce every single ideology to following the Kremlin's footsteps.
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u/hagan_shows Apr 28 '26
Why is that oblivious? Its the history of the country, good or bad...
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u/greenest_alien Apr 28 '26
Because they honour memories of states that have respectively destroyed each other and stood for radically opposite values ostensibly. Except for the value of russian imperialism and human life having zero value, those were always a constant.
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u/hagan_shows 23d ago
That doesn't change the fact that you can be proud of your history... the Russian Empire lasted for centuries and the Soviet Union lasted for decades and made some of the most important scientific feats in human history, it is not like the United States flying a Confederate flag because the CSA lasted barely five years and made very little impactful contributions to anything.
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u/Pristine-Breath6745 Apr 29 '26
Its not about ideology, its ablut wanting to xontroll and dominate your neigbhour.
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u/ivanIVvasilyevich Apr 28 '26
It’s not “oblivious” they do this to instill nationalistic sentiment across the Russian population irrespective of the ideological / political beliefs of Russian citizens.
It’s very intentional. Pointless? Maybe. But not oblivious.
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u/Pleasant-Bend-7414 Apr 29 '26
Sounds strange on its face but makes sense as Putinism can best be described as just Russian nationalism.
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u/BicycleAdditional360 Apr 29 '26
You cannot understand it outside of Russian public discussion. The thing is, red/white division was still present in said discussion in Russia.
Recently, this discussion mostly came to an end with a conmpromise – a concept of 'contunuous Russian statehood'.
In that sense 3 flags symbolise that we acknowledge out past and don't fight over its interpretations
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u/Late_Ad2203 Apr 28 '26
Probably because Pootin wants to try make the USSR again and has failed miserably at the first hurdle
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u/adonirancharles Apr 28 '26
Brazil does it too. On parades the Army not only flies the flag of the Empire it toppled, but also the flags used during the portuguese colonial times.
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u/Cjav-latam Apr 28 '26
I need to see that. I have to go to Brasilia, right? Or is it for some joint exercise with Argentina?
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u/AquelecaraDEpoa Brazil Apr 28 '26
It's more of a parade thing. You don't need to go to Brasília, lots of units in the military have them.
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u/Cjav-latam Apr 28 '26
Let me rephrase the question, as a Argentinian brother. When can I expect to see a parade with both flags? Perhaps they'll have them when a Brazilian warship comes to town?
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u/AquelecaraDEpoa Brazil Apr 28 '26
Ah, I wouldn't really know in that case. I'd say the safest bet would be going to a border town on September 7th, since there's always a military parade that day to celebrate independence. You can also watch the biggest one (in Brasília) online, too.
I don't think they bring the historical flags to joint military exercises or in warships going abroad, but I could be wrong.
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u/FilipAdzic97 Apr 28 '26
Its not inconsistent. Yugoslavia as a socialist republic celebrated World War 1 and the Balkan Wars regularly despite the fact that the Royal Army fought. They respect tradition, just as we celebrated the Serbian Uprising and other uprisings in republics.
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u/Useless_or_inept Apr 28 '26
both flags are a part of their history which they claim with pride to this day
Fun fact: At the Hague, Serb lawyers argued that Serbia wasn't the successor of Yugoslavia (and therefore Serbia wasn't bound by a treaty signed by Yugoslavia, therefore Serbs couldn't be prosecuted for certain war-crimes)
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u/wdym46 Apr 28 '26
Croatia did this once too tho it was the flag of SRH for a military parade in 1997 since the president at the time, Franjo Tudman - was a member of the Partisans during WW2 video of the parade with the timestamp of when the flags appear
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u/Ok-Door-5535 Apr 28 '26
Same thing happened two years prior in 1995, “homeguards” (regular soldiers of Independent State of Croatia, something like Wehrmacht) and partisans marched together
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u/SurovijaIstina Apr 28 '26
Imagine being a partisan in ww2, and 40 years after the war you are marching on a parade behind the nazi collaborators.
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u/Inevitable_Ad_325 Apr 28 '26
nothing special, by the middle of 90s many communists became ethnic nationalists, so to them as long as you were a patriot to the state they wouldn’t care. Oh how I wish Tito would have been able to see this
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u/Dizzy-Assistant6659 Apr 28 '26
It's said one could power the whole of Europe simply by harnessing the rotations of Tito's corpse.
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u/Metsenat Apr 29 '26
Don't know about Tito, but I'm sure, that you can def power the whole Eurasia from the rotations of Stalin's corpse.
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u/Hot_Conversat1on_ Apr 28 '26
Imagine fighting for your country freedom and 40 years later you are marching with soviet communist collaborators.
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u/EdwardCuttle333333 Apr 28 '26
Serbian army throughout the history, why not? It would have been interesting if they used the old middle Ages flags
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u/Austerlitz2310 Apr 28 '26
They do use them at times. I've seen both flags and uniforms throughout the ages be used. They even had a medieval knight suit of armour full with sword and shield once.
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u/Typical-Froyo-642 Apr 28 '26
Honestly, I think this is not that crazy in context of military tradition. Serbian military used communist symbols in the nation saving WWII.
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u/QuietAdvisor3 Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Lmao at ppl not living in the country calling this "contradictory"
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u/FilipAdzic97 Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
I don't see what is the problem here. The Royal Army flags from the Liberation Wars 1912-1921 and the Proleterian Brigade flags 1941-1945. In the last photo they also clearly also have flags and banners from the Serbian Uprisings.
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u/NidzoMadjija Apr 28 '26
These are not "royalist and socialist" flags, they're army flags from different historical periods.
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u/MooshiMoo Apr 28 '26
Feel like some of these might allso be military banners, which could be why there are a couple of diffrent ones from diffrent eras too
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u/Kerkly Apr 28 '26
In Russia people can support imperialism/tsarism ideas and sovetism in same time. Radical centrism - classic for modern Russia.
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u/Available-Badger-163 Apr 28 '26
One are ww1 kingdom of serbia other ones fpr ww2 partisans. Ever since 2005 Serbia treats both chetniks and partisans as fighters agains fascism and in 2015 it offically ratified that descision and rehabiltaited Draža Mihailović
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u/rasvoja Apr 28 '26
And is none. Its because its liberation parade. People also carry USSR flags because they praticipated in liberation of Belgrade. Some even wave Chetnik flags, I mean the audience.
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u/Gojira085 Apr 28 '26
America does this in some contexts. A good example is the presidential inauguration. They'll often fly flags from several eras
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u/someone_i_guess111 Apr 28 '26
well yeah, those are historical flags. the hungarian peoples army flew medieval flags of the KINGDOM of hungary (among many others) from different eras in their parades despite being a communist country
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u/ZgBlues Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
All post-communist countries do this.
Serbia is maybe an extreme case - they fly a monarchy flag even though they are not a monarchy, like Montenegro.
Russia does it too, Putin sees his regime as just another dynasty in a long line of dynasties, and the prevailing attitude there is that communism was also just a dynasty.
When communism collapsed these societies had a bridge to gap, they were eager to delete communism and build their identity on whatever came before.
The process wasn’t identical everywhere (previous identities also had centuries of history they thoroughly deleted from memory) but the results are similar.
And in addition, since they mythologize their own past so much, for various reasons I won’t go into, they are incredibly obsessive about symbols rather than content i.e. what those symbols mean.
This is why all post-communist countries are so keen on pre-communist symbolism. Serbia and Russia are perhaps a bit of outliers in that they embrace communist era more readily since they equate communism, for all its faults, with relevance.
It’s like Make Serbia Great Again, but the dilemma is when was it great exactly?
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u/CellistExternal2612 Apr 28 '26
But if croatia uses the 1942 one, they would've been banned from EU and NATO
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u/FilipAdzic97 Apr 28 '26
Yeah no shit, using Nazi flags on national holidays and parades should be banned.
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u/fr1ri Apr 28 '26
What is Russian about this?
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u/fr1ri Apr 28 '26
I mean, it's literally displaying historical flags and military banners, I don't see an issue with it.
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u/SwissForeignPolicy Apr 28 '26
Seems like a six flags over Texas type of situation. Perfectly fine and normal, IMO.
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u/ZealousidealAct7724 Apr 28 '26
These are not royalist and communist flags, but regimental flags from different periods.
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u/Relevant_Nebula1537 Apr 28 '26
I think they just want to honor the periods that each flag was the official one used both nationally and also internationally. It looks contradictory, I know, but if they want to do it, who am I to judge?
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u/Tornirisker Italy Apr 29 '26
Looks National-Bolshevik
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u/Sea-Bend-5914 May 02 '26
It isn't. It's the flag of the serbian army in WW1 and the partisan liberators from WW2. Their ideologies were at odds but both of the liberated Serbia. And I am very happy that there are partisan and not chetnik flags.
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u/redskin96 Apr 28 '26
Since they're also using the flag from the First Serbian Uprising, I guess the goal was to showcase different periods in the development of the Serbian Army. I'm not sure if they were trying to send a political message with the choice of flags here, but then again, Serbian nationalists are dumb, so you never know.
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u/Defiant-Strength2010 Apr 28 '26
The goal is to showcase all the victorious banners that Serbian military waved through our history, what the fuck are you talking about?
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u/Sea-Bend-5914 May 02 '26
Which political message. Every flag was a liberation flag from a specific period form the history of Serbia.
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u/skviki Apr 28 '26
It sends a message Serbia nurtures, that others in the federation found objectionable, that Yugoslavia was their empire.
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u/Defiant-Strength2010 Apr 28 '26
??? That's literally what (some) others in the federation are saying, not Serbia, and how is flying WWII flags at a military parade claiming in any way that Yugoslavia was an empire, let alone a Serbian one?
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u/NidzoMadjija Apr 28 '26
The less f*reigners know about us, the more opinions they have.
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u/Skelat Apr 28 '26
"De Clovis au Comité de salut public, j’assume tout"
'From Clovis to the Committee of Public Safety, I take full responsibility'
Napoleon I