r/vexillology • u/cartoonmayhem • Feb 19 '26
Identify Anyone know what this flag I found in my music class is?
Sorry about the blurriness š
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u/cryptojacktack Feb 19 '26
knights hospitaller
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u/BanjoTCat Feb 19 '26
Is this cross also associated with Malta?
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u/ChuckSmegma Feb 19 '26
Yes, that is a maltese cross.the knights hospitaller are the knights of Malta, as in the sobereign order of malta.
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u/hurtfulproduct Feb 19 '26
I donāt think being sober is a requirement
But what is kind of funny is in the 9 months I lived there only non-native Maltese really called it the Maltese cross, all the native born Maltese I knew called it the 8-pointed cross, lol
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u/Semper_nemo13 Wales Feb 19 '26
That makes sense though, usually only foreigners call something by an exonym.
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u/ChuckSmegma Feb 19 '26
As a welsh you can attest to that! Its even in your country's name
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u/Busy_Conflict3434 Feb 19 '26
Wales is an exonym but I think you're referring to the commonly repeated myth that "Wales" comes from the Anglo-Saxon word for "foreigner", which isn't true - it's derived from the word the Anglo-Saxons used for Celts specifically (it's cognate with "Gaul").
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u/ILikeBumblebees Feb 19 '26
Which is reflected in the names for regions that were historically inhabited primarily by Celts: Wales, Wallonia, Wallachia, Gaul, Galicia, Galatia (yes, there were Celts in Anatolia!), etc.
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u/fdupNeighbor Feb 19 '26
are og Anglo Saxons closest to those we call "the french" right now?
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u/FnordRanger_5 Feb 19 '26
They originate from more north/central I think, like Germany and Denmark
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u/Left_Interaction_288 Feb 19 '26
Not exactly, France and England both take their names from Germanic tribes that conquered parts of the former Roman Empire that had previously been Celtic. (See also the Lombards and Burgundrians). The Angles, Saxon and Jutes who settled Britain came from the north west coastal areas of what is now Germany and Denmark. The Franks were from further inland. The Franks conquered a large Empire, which was then divided. In West Frankia, covering much of what is now France, most people continued speaking common Latin (except in Brittany and the Basque country). This was adopted by the Frankish elite and evolved in to French. However in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms (including most of modern England and parts of Scotland) most people ended up speaking Old English.
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u/Finnegansadog Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 21 '26
The og Anglo-Saxons were those of the mixed culture of the tribes of the Angles (or Engles, or Anglii in Latin) from Angeln peninsula on the Baltic coast of what is present-day Germany, south of Jutland and present-day Denmark, and the Saxons, who came to the island from the area between the lower Rhine and Elbe rivers in present-day Germany. Both the Angles and Saxons spoke Western Germanic dialects, and were typically referred to only as āSaxonsā in the context of their early raiding and settlements in Roman Britain and Gaul.
The Angles and Saxons settled/conquered different portions of Britain, with the Angles founding the kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, and East Anglia, and the Saxons founding the kingdoms of Wessex, Sussex, and Essex (with Kent being settled by the Jutes).
East Anglia merged with Mercia, and was then conquered along with Northumbria by the Danes in the 9th century, bringing all the Angles in Britain under Danish rule. Following the reconquest of Mercia and Northumbria from the Danes by the Kingdom of Wessex (which had itself absorbed Essex and Sussex under its rule) the Angles and Saxons were first united within a single kingdom (which became the Kingdom of England). It was from this point that a single people referred to Anglo-Saxons began, and they ruled their potion of Britain until they were conquered by the Normans.
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u/HammerOfJustice Feb 19 '26
I have a vague memory of reading that the French(?) word for āforeignerā was the welsh words for ābread and wineā because a bunch of Welsh people were dumped in France and were asking the locals for food and drink. As you seem to be knowledgeable about Welsh things Iām curious whether Iām remembering correctly or not.
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u/Finnegansadog Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 20 '26
The (current) French word for foreigner is Ć©tranger, which has the same latin root as āstrangerā (extraneus, meaning "foreign," "external," or "from without"). There may be an older term Iām unfamiliar with.
āCompanionā has a similar to etymology to what you mentioned though, being a combination of ācomā (together) and āpanisā (bread), so āone who you eat bread withā.
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u/GreasyMcFarmer Feb 19 '26
Hence, Canadians call the Canada goose ācobra chickens.ā
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u/AlephBaker Feb 19 '26
Here in occupied South Canada (MN), we call them "goddammit, not those damn birds again! Ow! It bit me! Get lost! Go away!"
We frequently shorten it to just "geese", though. Or "cobra chickens", "snakebirds", "viperpigeons", "jerk-birds"... You get the idea.
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u/StepByStepGamer Malta Feb 19 '26
Not true. I'm Maltese. Everyone I know would call this 'Is-Salib ta Malta', or The Maltese Cross.
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u/bowjackmann Feb 19 '26
My wife is also Maltese and her entire family is from Valletta. They literally all call it the Maltese cross, in fact I've never even heard it called the 8-pointed cross
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u/hurtfulproduct Feb 19 '26
Interesting; the professors and the Maltese students I was with all called it the 8 point cross. . . Maybe itās a generational thing as well
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u/ChuckSmegma Feb 19 '26
In my country people generally use "maltese cross" as an umbrella term for a lot of crosses, including my football team, which is known to use a "maltese cross" (even says so in the club's hymn), which is actually the cross of the order of Christ, and not a maltese one.
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u/JoeMiz62 Feb 20 '26
I'm Maltese, and no, since in Malta the locals speak Maltese, we call it 'is-salib ta' Malta' or 'is-salib tal-Kavallieri', 'salib' meaning 'cross'. The cross is also worn on the Maltese rugby and football shirts.
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u/someone56789 Feb 19 '26
Though the field is red for the Maltese/Rhodes one, right?
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u/the_excalabur Canada ā¢ Twente Feb 19 '26
Yes. This is actually the flag of the order of st john that broke off during the reformation. The Anglican version, I believe.
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u/ChuckSmegma Feb 19 '26
I think so. I usually associate the knights with the red version too. Don't know why, though, maybe because thats their flag in EU4.
I think the order's current flag does not have a maltese cross
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u/MerijnZ1 Feb 19 '26
The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta, as they're officially called, technically has a red flag with a white latin cross on it as state flag. However, you'll more often run into the flag of their works, not the state, which is a white Maltese cross in the center of a red flag. Cause that's the one used for their actual hospitals, ambulances, etc
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u/Bernardito10 Feb 19 '26
After their defeats in the middle east and rodes the king of spain āgiftedā them the island in exchange for two falcons yearly,in retourn they would protect the central mediterranean from muslim raids and expansion and that they did.
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u/BanjoTCat Feb 19 '26
Are falcons hard to get? Seems like a bargain.
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u/Bernardito10 Feb 19 '26
If i remember correctly there were trained Maltese falcon wich i asume are rarer,but it was mostly simbolic.
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u/DonQuigleone Feb 19 '26
The Spanish crown got a good deal. The Knights of Malta protected Spanish shipping throughout the region and raided Barbary pirate strongholds and the Spanish didn't have to pay anything, and the island itself had no particular economic value.Ā
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u/Designer-Worth2962 Feb 19 '26
In medieval times, it was common to put a nugatory rent (a famous example being one peppercorn a year) on something that youād give away, but you want to retain the option to take it back.
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u/BanjoTCat Feb 19 '26
Next time I move, I'll offer nugatory rent instead of monetary rent.
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u/BrillsonHawk Feb 19 '26
When the holy land fell to the muslims the Hospitallars started operating from Rhodes instead. When Rhodes fell they moved to Malta. They were in Malta until Napoleon turned up, but they still have their own passports, territory, etc inside Rome even today. They also briefly held a colonial empire in the Americas
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u/clandevort Feb 19 '26
I will never understand how the Templars became the default crusaders in pop culture when the Hospitallers had such insane drip. Yeah the red cross on white is cool and all, but have you seen the white on black thing the Hospitallers have going on? And they didn't even get wiped out by the French! (Yes I know Napoleon kicked them off Malta, but they still exist! And he was Corsican!)
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u/ChuckSmegma Feb 19 '26
I believe that the getting wiped out by the French is what makes the templars stand out. Their dissolution make them interesting and better known as the other orders.
But the Hospitallers' history is also very interesting
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Feb 19 '26
[deleted]
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u/Greecelightninn Feb 19 '26
And defeating czechia with 8 players on the ice
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u/Wafflelisk Canada Feb 19 '26
The Czechs had 6 men on ice for one of their goals lol.
Game should have never made it to overtime
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u/omnipresent_sailfish New England Feb 19 '26
Knights Hospitaller
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u/Indishonorable Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
Knights? How quaint. FIRE!
edit: relax guys I'm just quoting a video game character.
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u/AcceptableHamster149 Feb 19 '26
You joke, but I believe the Knights Hospitaler are the only chivalric order that still operates uninterrupted since the crusades, and they are the origin of the modern word "hospital", as their main purpose was/is medical support.
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u/Escape_is_impossible Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
Yes, they still exist as the catholic Sovereign Military Order of St John of Malta (the short name) based out of Rome and act mostly as a charity, but still have their own passports, currency and sovereign territory. The Anglican offshoot Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem and they run ambulance brigades across the commonwealth
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u/SJC-Caron Feb 19 '26
I believe that the Anglican offshoot also runs the St. John Eye Hospital in Jerusalem.
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u/groovygooly Feb 19 '26
The Most Venetable Order of St. John of Jarusalem. They would be in a Canadian school if they are involved with St John the first aid organisation
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u/ILikeBumblebees Feb 19 '26
The Most Venetable Order of St. John of Jarusalem.
Venerable. "Venetable" sounds like it should mean "capable of being sent to Venice".
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u/WantSumDuk Feb 19 '26
I worked for the St John first aid! Also met a knight of the order of St John once. Was really cool. They still use the white cross on black on their robes.
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u/Expensive-Student732 Feb 20 '26
As do I. I got to go to an investiture at our government house. Really lovely to see.
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u/wondercaliban Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
If you are in the UK, its Used nowadays for St Johns Ambulance. Maybe your music teacher volunteers eith them
Edit: Just seen the Canadian flag. But its also the symbol for the Canadian st. johns as well
https://sja.ca/en?srsltid=AfmBOorvyE81WomfEXQjR4cMqU9sZmuNQkn7HJ-I5zp_yTQCTnB16nSn
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u/BobbySunrise Feb 19 '26
Little difficult because itās cropped off, but it appears to be the flag of Canada
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u/MarkWrenn74 United Kingdom Feb 19 '26
The flag of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem (a Christian religious society, who historically provide medical services, like the St. John's Ambulance Brigade)
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u/trioxman Feb 19 '26
Black templars, for the emperor !
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u/cartoonmayhem Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
Wait that's funny bc I've just been getting into 40k. Had no idea the black templars used that flag.
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u/Flat-Requirement2652 Feb 19 '26
An old version of the knight hospitaler symbol, i think they changed in in 1282 i coulem be wrong it was afrer the Fall of Cyprus
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u/tonysopranosalive Feb 19 '26
Knights Hospitalier
If I remember correctly they were like medics/caregivers during the first crusade or some shit.
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u/I_Am_Become_Dream Feb 19 '26
they still exist FYI
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u/shadowfax12221 Feb 19 '26
Yup, my grandma was a member. They're a catholic charity and still based in Valetta, Malta if I'm not mistaken.
Valetta is a super cool place, the st. John's co-cathedral was built for them and is one of the most beautiful churches I've ever seen. They have an enormous collection of art, including a giant chiaroscuro painting by carravagio called, "the death of John."
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u/luujs Greater London ā¢ City of London Feb 19 '26
Iām not sure they were medics, but they were definitely knights who often fought on crusade in the Holy Land and ended up ruling over Malta until Napoleon kicked them out in 1798.
They traced their origins to being hired to protect a hospital in Jerusalem, but as far as I can tell they were a military wing separate from the medical carers in the hospital
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u/cartoonmayhem Feb 19 '26
Thanks for the explanation. My music teacher's Maltese so that makes sense. We weren't really taught much about the crusades so I had no idea about all that.
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u/shadowfax12221 Feb 19 '26
The knights of st. John is a charitable organization that does a bunch of humanitarian work now. They we a military order that ruled the entire island right up until they were defeated by napoleon if I remember correctly. The brits took the island from the french after defeating napoleon and ruled it until it gained its independence in the 20th century.
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u/someone56789 Feb 19 '26
iirc initially they were a hospital but it turned to a military order
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u/KungenBob Feb 19 '26
No - as in hospitable. They started to guard pilgrim hostels. They evolved into banking and writing historical conspiracy novels.
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u/someone56789 Feb 19 '26
I read through Wikipedia a little to double check and it says that they started off as a hospital for pilgrims before being a military order, unless I'm reading it wrong
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u/KungenBob Feb 19 '26
Iām pretty sure the meaning of hospital as a place for sick people and doctors came a LOT later, but in this context it meant somewhere for pilgrims to rest on their journey.
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u/tonysopranosalive Feb 19 '26
Ah okay, thanks for that explanation. Either way I was willing to bet OP is in a Catholic school lol
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u/FourEyedTroll Lincolnshire Feb 19 '26
Isn't the hospitaller cross usually depicted on a red field?
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u/enrious Feb 19 '26
They started with one and later started using the other; these days they're pretty interchangeable.
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u/TheAviator27 Feb 19 '26
Sovereign Military Hospitaller order of St. John of Jerusalem, Rhodes, and MƔlta.
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u/NukeUtopia Feb 19 '26
Your band teacher is in the divergent chapter of the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars.
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u/IscaPlay Principality of Sealand Feb 19 '26
Order of St John / St John Ambulance
A British based order that is a modern successor to the Knights Hospitaller.
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u/Dizzy-Assistant6659 Feb 19 '26
It might be related to the Venerable Order of Saint John, which operates the St. John Ambulance
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u/the_excalabur Canada ā¢ Twente Feb 19 '26
This black version is used by the Order of St John that broke off from the main branch of the Knights Hospitalier (of St John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes, and of Malta) during the reformation in England. Famous now for St John Ambulance and running first aid classes.
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u/mildinsults Feb 19 '26
Black Templars. (Warhammer) Highly zealous crusading loyalists.
Your music class is not welcome to zenos and heresy.
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u/KingLuke2024 Feb 19 '26
The Knights Hospitaller - a military order founded to care for the poor, sick, and injured during the Crusades.
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u/Brain_Octopus Feb 19 '26
Iām sorry but my geek personality wants to tell you the symbol of the Black Templar in Warhammer 40Kā¦
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u/AnteaterFormal7291 Feb 19 '26
The first assassin's creed has these guys. First first, pre ezio. Altair's AC
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u/Certain-DarthNihilus Feb 19 '26
ST JOHN'S AMBULANCE goodness. Everyone wants to tell about templars and hospitalliers but this is a school in Canada its probably emergency service stuff
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u/Legal-Letterhead4192 Feb 20 '26
Crusading time, for those that may not know, the Order of Malta was a crusader order
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u/lord_khadgar05 Feb 20 '26
The Knights of St. John of Jerusalem and Malta, also known as the āKnights Hospitallerā, an order of Crusader Knights who protected pilgrims heading to the Holy Land during the Crusades, and later headquartered on Malta. They still exist as a Catholic chivalric order (alongside other former orders of knighthood from that era like the Teutonic Order).
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u/Idontcareaforkarma Feb 20 '26
The correct name of the organisation is Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalemā
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u/neurospiceprincess Feb 20 '26
The cross given to my mother landdd š²š¹š²š¹
On April 15, 1942, King George VI awarded the George Cross to the island fortress of Malta to honour the bravery and resilience of its people during the intense Axis siege of World War II. As the highest civilian gallantry award, it recognized the population's endurance against 3,340 air raids and extreme suffering. The emblem is incorporated into the Maltese flag.
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u/Jarvis412 Feb 20 '26
Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, it was the flag where knights could go after a battle for medical reasons.
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u/Squirrell_s Feb 21 '26
The flag is as previously mention that of St John Ambulance. The most venerable order of St John of Jerusalem to abbreviate the title and just call it the order going forward is a red flag with a white cross on it. The white eight pointed cross became the original medieval cross for the monks who served originally in Jerusalem. The had been a hospital organised since around 900AD but the order comes into its own at the time of the first crusade initially as a more traditional order of monks who specialised in looking after the sick before developing a military arm and joining the line of the templars. The white eight pointed cross was originally the trading badge of merchants from Amalfi who gave land and money for the hospital to be established as an honour to them their trading badge was adapted by the monks. To cut several years of history out š¤£ the crusaders were kicked out and so for St. John we moved into our island years which included Cyprus Rhodes and finally Malta where we settled for a few centuries. Having destroyed the original capital of Malta to capture the island. It was rebuilt and renamed Valletta after Jean de Vallette 49th grand master of the order we brought the cross with us and since we were in Malta for a long time the cross became symbolic with the Island. The Knights of Malta are a separate organisation. The original order of St. John departed England after a long history of severing the crown in various roles due to the closures of the monasteries by Henry 8th. The last Grand Prior of England was William Weston who is said to have died of a broken heart. The order continued in Europe and contines to this day around the world. The modern St.John Ambulance came about in the Victorian period with a need seen for what we now call first aid and care especially within areas affected by the Industrial Revolution. Potteries and collieries in particular. The organisation was formalised in 1877 with the association which taught these subjects to their communities and was followed a decade later in 1887 by the Brigade or the formation of the uniformed side of the organisation. In 1922 we were formally joined by cadets and in 1987 at our centenary of the brigade Bertie badger was ābornā and so we formalised our young section. I am currently in my 41st year of being a member of St. John Ambulance as a volunteer, I was at the great party in 1987 and around for the cadet centenary which due to COVID was not what we hoped for. We are looking for to the 150th anniversary of the association being formed which is in 2027. Our history is a long one. We have an order of St.John still. Our current Grand Prior is Richard, Duke of Gloucester, our Lord Prior is a lovely man by the name of Mark Compton who is an Australian (St.John is an international organisation) and the Prior of England is another lovely man by the name of Simon Williams. The order is an order of chivalry and to be a member of the order you need to be nominated and like any other order of chivalry needs to be approved by the sovereign.
Please visit our museum site
This video was done 10 years ago it is less than 7 minutes long and was done by our cadets and badgers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9snP8X2Uc4
Of the people in the video one now works at the museum, one was our first youth trustee and three others are still volunteers within the youth section of our organisation even if they are only now turning 19 and 20.
We are as mentioned above an international organisation and the role we play in the in each country varies on the need. I notice the Canadian flag in the picture so hi to my friends in Burnaby, Canada
The concept of service is still an important cornerstone of the organisation. The friends we make, the events and activities we have the opportunity to undertake is something that would require an even longer post.
Thank you to those who made it this far. I hope this helped and was vaguely interesting
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u/cozy_engineer Feb 19 '26 edited Apr 27 '26
Redact redacted this content because I wanted it redacted for redaction purposes. Redacted.
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u/Round-Coat1369 Feb 19 '26
Either A. It's a crusader order or B. It's an attempt at making a flag version of a black templar chaplains pauldron but it looks more like A.
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u/Sweaty_Report7864 Canada Feb 19 '26
Knights Hospitaller, or more formally deep breath the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta. The only knightly crusader order to still exist.
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u/BlipNugget5000 Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26
As a member of St John Ambulance for over 12 years in Canada, I can tell you a few things.Ā
You state that you are at a Catholic school. Now this does not mean they couldn't be a member of St John Ambulance (especially in Canada where it is prevalent, it makes more sense to join SMOM as it's open to Catholics only.) St John Ambulance is presently non-denominational.
The Most Venerable Order of St John of Jerusalem (or Order of St John for short) is historically an Anglican/Protestant revival of the then Knights Hospitaller/Order of Malta. King Henry VIII dissolved the monastery and Catholic Church in England during his reign as is well known. All the Hospitaller holdings were taken over by the crown. The Order was revived by Queen Victoria in the 1800's as an Anglican order of chivalry in the British Realm/Empire at the time. Hence why the Order of St John/St John Ambulance (their volunteer/education arm) can be found throughout the Commonwealth.
The Hospitallers eventually became the Knights of St John or Malta. They lost. Malta to Napoleon and are now stationed out of Rome. They still exist as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM), the same order that started in the Crusades.Ā
All this being said. The Venerable Order of St John (British) flag has the unicorn and lions in the corners of the cross on a black background.Ā
The Catholic SMOM has a red flag white white cross (think the Danish flag) or a red flag with white Maltese Cross.
TLDR;
This is just your teacher being interested in the OG Catholic Knights Hospitaller from the Crusades.
While they are affiliated it's not the St John Ambulance or Order of St John flag.Ā
Plus, the Knights Hospitaller switched to the red and white flag very shortly after their creation, but kept the black with white Maltese Cross on their uniforms for professed knights/monks.Ā
Hope this helps! Happy to answer any other questions as this is my area of expertise.
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u/justolli United Kingdom Feb 20 '26
They sell these flags all over Malta in tourist traps. Source: I bought one identical to this back in 2009 in Valletta.
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u/delayedheath Feb 20 '26
Yeah the whole "foreigners calling things by different names" thing is way more common than people realize. England itself is basically just what the Angles named their kingdom, so we're all just walking around using exonyms without even thinking about it
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u/Few_Letter_6011 Feb 20 '26
That is the cross of the Knights Order of Saint John. It is also the Maltese crossš²š¹š²š¹š²š¹š²š¹
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u/spicypostponement02 Feb 20 '26
Lmao fair point, wrinkled flags do look kinda janky. Though honestly most teachers prob don't even think about that stuff, they just grab whatever's in the closet
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u/_travelers Feb 20 '26
Knights of Malta flag, next to the Canadian flag too that is fuckin beautiful
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u/Youjuststolemyname Feb 20 '26
The comments under this post are actually so cool im so glad i got to see this post
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u/NavoiiGamerYes Feb 21 '26
A Maltese cross of some kind. I got a pin with it but it just kinda disappeared. I guess Iām not cut out for it
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u/icauseclimatechange Feb 19 '26
Do you go to a Catholic school?