Fictional
if scotland left the uk wouldnt the flag be this?
ive seen alot of these flags but why dont they just recolor the saltire and background (they just remove the saltire keeping northern irelands saltire small) EDIT: this is just one of the many flags they could change to if they even bother to (unlikely) also if you have your own flags please share :D
If Scotland left, and the UK decided to change its flag, there would be as big a push to put Wales on it, as to remove Scotland from it. As cool as having it dragon on it would be, it's more likely the flag of St David would be used. Maybe a black background replacing the Scottish blue, some gold trim on the red cross
Except this flag has four crosses: George, Patrick, David, and some white one. You've basically retained the white of St Andrew's saltire without reason.
I think they'd leave the fimburation as white on the flag for St. George (Red Cross on White). They'd increase the Red saltire to be the entirity of it (other than the fimburation) for St. Patrick (Red Saltire on White), and just change the background from Blue to Black (incorporating the Black background of St. David (Gold Cross on Black), and the flag of St. Piran (White Cross on Black)).
The reason the diagonal cross is like that is to represent both the Northern Irish and Scottish crosses, but the Scottish cross would be removed entirely
The reason that the saltire is like that is to make. There are two changes that I think that they'd make.
First off, without the Cross of St. Andrew on there, they'd probably increase the red portion on the diagonals to the full width with fimburation.
Secondly, I think that they'd change the background to Black. This would represent two things: the St. David's Cross (Gold cross on Black) representing Wales. I also think it would also represent the St. Piran Cross (White cross on Black) representing Cornwall.
Rule of tincture, from heraldry, says color should not touch color, and metal should not touch metal. The metals are "Or" (gold or yellow) and "Argent" (silver or white). This is done to make it so similar colored sections aren't touching, so it is easier to differentiate at a distance. Adding fimbriation, or a border in a different color/metal, is used to avoid this issue, and this is already present in the current UK flag (the white borders between the blue and red).
In general, the rule of tincture and fimbriation are followed in flag designs, but there are plenty of examples where it isn't followed (e.g. the flag of Mozambique).
Yes. On the current flag the white (argent; silver) border (fimbriation) is there to keep the red (gules) cross from overlaying the blue (azure) field, which would break the rule of tincture of not having colour on colour.
The rule also says not to have metal on metal, so specifically adding it here so that yellow (or; gold) overlays white where it isn't needed breaks the rule, and for no good reason at that!
If I removed the fimbriations from outside the yellow, it would look terrible. And not looking terrible is the only rule that really matters. If I removed the fimbriations from the red too, the flag would break the even more flimsy "no colour on colour" part of that same rule. And it would no longer look much like the current flag, which is "specifically" why my design keeps those fimbrations. They're already there on the Union Jack. It isn't going from anything to anything else
The tincture rule exists because yellow happens to have a similar colour to a popular valuable metal, and some guys centuries ago decided that was important. Not out of objective aesthetic necessity. I decided to prioritise splitting the English and Welsh crosses similarly to the Scottish and Irish on the current one, over a silly rule that loads of flags already break. Your priorities may vary
Neither would be acceptable tbh and unfortunately we'd have to have metal on metal as the white of the St george cross would be touching the yellow of St David's by the most acceptable conventional method. (Basically your first one with white separating the yellow and red)
We should have a Celtic Union, with some kind of federal system where each of us largely rules ourselves, but some kind of joint committee or something for stuff like foreign policy - primarily to present a unified front to the auld colonial enemy and stop them playing their old divide-and-conquer tricks. ;)
No. Although the flag of St David is a thing, most of us in Wales would insist on having the Red Dragon on the new flag, because that is the symbol most of us Welsh see as signifying our country. Sure, the daffodil and leek symbolise Wales too, but most of us associate Wales with the dragon. If there was a referendum on it, the dragon would win hands down.
Which is quite funny, because it was redesigned to represent Moravia, which means that it is exactly the same situation, i.e. the country has a flag on which all historical lands should be depicted, but one of them is missing (in this case, Silesia).
Colombia's coat of arms still has the entire country of Panama in it. I think the UK might look into changing its flag, or it might acknowledge the historical ties and use worldwide (would Australia and New Zealand also change their flags?)
But Australia’s colonization started before the use of the current version of the Union Jack, which is from the 1800s. So they did adjust their flag at some stage.
(The majority of) Ireland left 100 years ago but they are still represented in the flag. I guess the Scottish blue would be kept. Much like how the french lilies were kept on the English royal standard for centuries.
I don't think it had a lot to do with the isles. It was more that the Plantagenets and Angevins were French royal houses who saw the French Crown as rightfully theirs.
It wouldn’t change. It’s got far too much brand recognition. In any case most of the world would incorrectly say that is the flag of England if you asked them. There wouldn’t be a load of people questioning why it has not been changed
That's not actually what the symbolism is, and that misconception also informs why so many people think Wales was 'left off' the flag. The Union Flag is a record of two historical moments, not a roll call of UK national subdivisions.
Those moments are the accession of the Kingdom of England (which contained Wales at the time) by James VI, and the accession* of the Kingdom of Ireland by George III. These are both instances of a Royal personal union being formalised into the more modern concept of a nation-state. The Union Flag is like a kid having a double-barrelled surname.
I like how you called him James VI instead of James I. A nice reminder that the Union Jack actually represents a Scottish king assuming the English crown.
In present day, yes. But I don’t know if he was officially referred to by both titles during his reign. As soon as he acceded to the English throne in 1603, Scotland and England were unified and his title became James I. And in Scotland they officially recognized him as James I king of GB, Ireland & France in 1604. So maybe there was a period of a few months where the Scots used both names/titles. But I think it’s more likely they prob referred to him as James VI King of Scotland.
Great fact, thank you. I meant like both of his titular names, though. Like did he ever refer to himself as James VI of Scotland and James I of England and Ireland?
It could be argued that the symbolism has changed so that now they represent the constituent nations, or that the "un-doing" of one of those historical events (Scottish independence or Irish reunification) should necessitate a change to the flag.
Yes, I quickly footnoted to acknowledge about George but it seems you beat me to the punch. My point about the flag updating to represent the formalisation of two crowns into a single state is untouched.
What I find far more interesting is this line!
There is a historical reason why, which we have no reason to stick to,
Interesting thing to say when your position is that Scotland would have to come off because the symbolism would be defunct. Which way would you like to have it?
You can't assert that any one way makes "most sense", but you certainly have a right to your personal preference. I don't think it's compatible to say the flag simply is a roll call, and also feel that Wales got forgotten. That's just further evidence that there's more going on.
At any rate, it could equally be argued that the "most symbolic sense" would be to acknowledge that the present flag is now a symbol in it's own right, more than it is a collection of other symbols.
I'm agreed entirely on 1801 - it was a roll call, of two kingdoms/crowns fusing into a singular whole. Each of which had a flag at the moment they ceased to exist as entities. Since then, no new kingdoms have been absorbed, and no kingdoms have split off.
IF Scotland left the UK, and also established a royal estate agreed to be the continuation of the same Scottish crown that was obsoleted in 1603, I'd be inclined otherwise
(and even then not wholly, because the modern flag represents the two symbols that existed in 1801)
Irish symbolism is still widely used in the UK eg. The royal standard, despite the fact that the majority of Ireland has been independent for over 100 years. This is misappropriation.
The point is that nobody would force us to change it. It has no meaning in the modern day and the international flag police can't do anything about it. There would be zero reason to change it.
Again, I don't think that'd be enough of a reason. The flag has been in use for well over 200 years now, long enough that the original meaning doesn't really matter anymore; the Union Jack is arguably the most recognisable icon of British culture, and I think they'll go on using it even if Scotland becomes independent.
Exactly. When something have been a symbol for long enough time, the original reasons/meanings are diminished and the symbol itself becomes seperatly meaningfull.
All the what-ever-you-call-former-colonies-still-under-the-crown (can't remember the name or if there's several names depending on situation) that have the Union Jack in the top left quater, which more or less designed their flags with that in mind (mainly blue/red/white color-schemes and had to look good exactly with that a quater "taken"), might chose to redesign their flags, and most likely most of them without any new british quater (we'd finally, finally, finally perhaps see new Australian and New Zealand flags! 😆)
PS; the danish flag, the "inventor" of the nordic cross, has that specific dimension from beeing a used as a maritime flag and the longer right side "crept" into the actual flag. Very few know this, that every single nordic cross flag is because of the danish navy. Should the countries (and non-country areas with nordic cross flags) that doesn't have a navy change to the centered cross? Don't think so 😉
"Exactly. When something have been a symbol for long enough time, the original reasons/meanings are diminished and the symbol itself becomes seperatly meaningfull."
Not for us Brits in this case
"All the what-ever-you-call-former-colonies-still-under-the-crown (can't remember the name or if there's several names depending on situation) that have the Union Jack in the top left quater, which more or less designed their flags with that in mind (mainly blue/red/white color-schemes and had to look good exactly with that a quater "taken"), might chose to redesign their flags, and most likely most of them without any new british quater (we'd finally, finally, finally perhaps see new Australian and New Zealand flags! 😆)"
Commonwealth Realms, not every Commonwealth Realm has this Canton, it symbolises the historical connections to the UK
"PS; the danish flag, the "inventor" of the nordic cross, has that specific dimension from beeing a used as a maritime flag and the longer right side "crept" into the actual flag. Very few know this, that every single nordic cross flag is because of the danish navy. Should the countries (and non-country areas with nordic cross flags) that doesn't have a navy change to the centered cross? Don't think so 😉"
It's become a symbol of pan-nordicism in a sense. Very different situation to the UK
The inclusion of St Andrew's saltire isn't a representation of Scotland being in the UK, it reflects the defunct Kingdom of Scotland participating in the 1603 Union of Crowns (which was, for lack of better phrasing, their idea)
Flags don't have to change the moment their meaning shifts. In reality the union jack is far too strong a visual brand internationally and far too popular in England for them to change it. It's become more than the sum of its parts.
Nah, there's millions of Scottish people in the UK even if they left.
If anything I could imagine England using it more. You just have to look at old football games and you'll see more union jacks than the cross of St George.
I guess if you're going to strike out on your own, it seems odd to me to keep an anachronistic system like royalty just for the sake of it, James VI/I be damned.
Strictly speaking, there is no official shade of blue for the Scottish saltire, though it has obviously shifted in popularity towards the lighter blue most associate it with today, particularly after the Labour Party (not the SNP who weren't in power) in Scotland standardised government use of the flag under a lighter shade in 2003
The official blue of the Scottish flag was already a lighter shade than the official blue of the British flag – at least according to the 1989 Flags of All Nations. As The Herald put it in 2002:
Roses are red,
violets are blue,
for the hue of the saltire,
only Pantone 549C8771B will do.
And of course historically the union jack went with quite a dark blue as it was designed as a naval ensign where a dark blue would weather better anyway. Cool insight from the Herald there 🙂
Why would you not just use the actual royal flag? Which btw still has a giant fuck off harp on it for ireland.
Actually there are two versions, one has two scottish lions squares for the scottish royal flag, and the english one has two english lion squares (three lions per square).
If Scotland did leave that would be an ideal time to redesign the flag and have the Welsh flag incorporated into the new one. I think people would be clamouring for it not just in Wales but England too, and it would finally correct something that should have been corrected a long long time ago.
This was a discussion that was had ad infinitum during 2014 when Scotland last voted on independence.
While there’d be a push to change the flag of the UK, it wouldn’t be this. There’d be a big push for Welsh recognition in the flag - be that the St David’s Cross, the green background of the Welsh flag or a dragon.
Personally I’m not convinced Westminster would change it at all.
The Union Flag was created by Royal Proclamation - a statutory instrument of the prerogative powers of the monarch.
The prerogative powers of the monarch are exercised by the monarch - on the advice (read: command) of the ministers. Which has been the case since 1688.
The Union Flag was created by order-in-council and only announced by royal proclamation. "Westminster" is metonymy for parliament. Neither the monarch nor his ministers – the Privy Council – are "Westminster".
Without Scotland, UK can just keep the current Union Jack while stating that the inclusion of St. Andrew flag is done to respect Scotland's strong influence on UK history and formation. The first king of UK (James) was from Scotland anyway.
He was King of Scotland and King of England separately.
The counties didn't fully unify until 1707, to form Great Britain. It wasn't the UK until 1801 when Ireland was added, making it the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
When most of Ireland kicked the Brits out, they added the word 'Northern' in.
The first king to use "United Kingdom" in his royal title (in English) was George III; the first king to reign over the United Kingdom (of Great Britain) was George I, successor to Anne, in whose reign the UK was created.
Unless Scotland would push for a name and flag change, I think things would stay the same, much like Spain's name represents the whole peninsula, and Portugal never had an issue with it (and only changed the flag because of losing the war with Portugal and recognizing its independence).
Yes but AFAIK, neither the Spanish not the Portuguese would understand the name or flag of Spain to symbolise anything else than the modern country of Spain.
Hispania or Francia historically designating different states or areas is just a historic piece of trivia with no relation to modern conflicts about nationality, unlike the Scottish nationalism and their symbols. So no idea why you'd bring that up.
That's are more fitting comparison, but Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Scotland leaving the UK would be dissolving the Union that lead to the creation of the Union Jack. Unless part of Scotland remained, Scottish people would probably have have an with the remaining UK still using their national symbols.
At the time, it was not known whether Ireland was going to be a separate kingdom or a part of the UK, or a republic. Few would have predicted the eventually that it would be, in part, all three in succession.
A union flag for a United Kingdom of South Britain and Northern Ireland would not have any need of fimbriations, so there need be no white space between the red saltire and the red cross, just continuous red lines making a red octopus.
They could slightly change the hue of the blue over a couple of years to green for wales then gaslight the world that nothings changed.
Or they do the same thing to make the wales flag blue so its technically correct
If Scotland left, the UK would still keep the same flag. The flag has been around for 400 years (aside from the NI stripes). The flag represents the accomplishments of the country, English, Welsh and Northern Irish, far beyond Scottish additions.
scotland is the one contery with a bond with france if england forced scotland away
"hay england look behind you" then the flag would no longer have red.
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u/browsib Dec 30 '25
If Scotland left, and the UK decided to change its flag, there would be as big a push to put Wales on it, as to remove Scotland from it. As cool as having it dragon on it would be, it's more likely the flag of St David would be used. Maybe a black background replacing the Scottish blue, some gold trim on the red cross