I have a genuine question

[u/Fancy-Language4242]

Hey guys! I just finished s1 of the series and I heard a lot of people thought the show was bad. I am a casual, never read comics, only watched this and s2 of daredevil. But personally I think that the show is great, I liked the character and Jon is a hell of an actor. Why are people saying that the show is bad (for example compared to daredevil which is an amazing show also)

[u/Sweaty-Bar-4187]

Anyway, that's not true. The people who love the series far outnumber those who hate it. Go to IMDb and TV Time and read the comments. everyone calls it a masterpiece.

There's no doubt that it's a great series, but is it a great "Punisher" series? Well, some comic book fans don't think so. They say it's a good show, but not a good Punisher show. Personally, I love both.

[u/gvrmtissueddigiclone]

I think I understand both sides?

I'm in the same boat because Daredevil and the Punisher show introduced me to the character and I had a good time with it. It also took a few years until I started following it up by checking out more of the street-level New York comics (I'm mostly an X-Men kinda girl) and was actually introduced to the comics version of the Punisher, which I also really enjoyed. And now I both still like the show but also understand why people who were a fan of the comics first and were hoping for a faithful adaptation, criticise it - because there are differences that would be disappointing if you are a comics'-Punisher fan first. (Punisher: War-Zone is imo the most in-character screen-adaptation, if you want to check it out and maybe get a bit of a taste of what people mean).

For me personally, I think that some of the differences between Bernthal's Punisher and the comics' Punisher make sense, actually, or at least I can explain them to myself. But obviously, it means the adaptation is less faithful to the comics (I could go into detail about that, but in a way, it feels like a bit of an 'alternative/what if-' version to me, with a lot of the differences coming from that fact that it wasn't a random shooting that killed Frank's family but a conspiracy and that it was also partially the result of his own actions. I think this explains a lot of the differences between these versions of the character. Also, I know Marvel has a sliding age scale, I mostly see the comics version of Frank Castle as older than the Netflix version and that's another way in which I justify some of the differences to myself)

THAT SAID...I also think that some criticism is just reddit being reddit and fans being fans.

[u/Sweaty-Bar-4187 → u/gvrmtissueddigiclone]

Great point.

That said, I don't really see changing the Punisher's origin story as a problem.

1- There were already hints back in Daredevil Season 2. Dutton, the inmate Frank killed in prison, mentioned that the drug operation involved more than 100 people. That suggests it was a massive trafficking operation, not exactly the same situation as in the comics. Because of that, other parties being involved in the murder of the Castle family was never a far-fetched idea. What I'm trying to say If someone has a problem with that plot point, I think the issue comes from how it was originally presented in Daredevil, not from The Punisher series itself.

2- "Some" (not all) Punisher fans have only read MAX, so their entire perception of the character comes from that run. But I honestly think that anyone who has read War Journal or 90's punisher would have a much greater appreciation for the show. Like Where Frank is targeted in one of the stories by a former friend from his unit, because of a drug-smuggling operation in 'nam that he suspects Frank may know something about.

The writers of the show did a great job taking ideas like that and connecting them to the death of his family in a way that feels logical and believable.

I don't think there's anything wrong with changing certain events from the comics.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

[u/Fantastic-Street-262]

I think the main reason the show isn't liked is the lack of comic accuracy, specifically Jon Bernthal's take on the character it's a lot different than the character from the comics I think that's where most of the discourse comes from BUT if you like the show that's great continue to watch and enjoy it, if anyone tries to tell you not to watch the show or it's bad that you liked it ignore them As long as you have fun with the series

[u/Fancy-Language4242 → u/Fantastic-Street-262]

Thanks for this 😄 I also wondered in the past couple of days how the punisher would've been made if it was comic books accurate.

[u/ComplexAd7272]

Mainly because there seems to be this feeling of people behind the scenes either not truly understanding the character of The Punisher, or they DO understand and just decided to go another way. There's times when it comes off as them not really knowing what KIND of show they want to make or who Frank should be.

Is it a Frank focused show confronting his vigilantism, trauma, and PTSD? An ensemble piece? A modern thriller about government coverups and conspiracies? A gritty, street focused series? An action show? A revenge story? It dips it's toes in all of these, some more than others, but never really commits all the way to any of them.

It also for whatever reason has the WORST habits of the Marvel Netflix shows in a single series. Emphasis on side stories and characters you don't really care about. Taking forever to advance the plot. Seemingly wanting to focus on everyone EXCEPT Frank. Too many plot lines going on at once. An almost stubborn refusal to have Frank do Punisher things, wear the skull, etc...I LOVE Jon Bernthal, but I don't think anyone goes into Punisher media saying "I want lots of scenes of Castle sitting around talking!"

Having said all of that, I don't hate it or even think it's "bad" like a lot of people do. It's fine or okay, and there's nothing wrong with being fine. But compared to Daredevil, which miraculously managed to be 99% comic accurate, maintain the spirit of the characters from the comics, AND be a storytelling masterpiece....I don't think a lot of people walked away from Punisher feeling either "Oh man, they nailed it from the comics!" or "Wow, that was a revolutionary piece of television."

[u/Fancy-Language4242 → u/ComplexAd7272]

Well written, thanks! I think I'm actually happy I'm not into comics (sadly, we don't have them here in physical form), I think I wouldn't have liked the series if I read the comics haha

[u/JonGorga → u/Fancy-Language4242]

Oh, man. Comics is a WONDERFUL storytelling medium.

I don’t like Deadpool comics but I went to see all three Deadpool movies in theaters and marveled at how well they nailed it. The Keanu Reeves Constantine film is almost completely wrong as an adaptation of the Constantine comics but very enjoyable as its own thing.

You can still read them just not in print and not staring the Punisher! Haha!

[u/iknowyouarehiding]

Everyone has different opinions. For me, Jon’s a great actor: as you watch S2 you’ll see where the main gripe comes in. The story resets itself and the drama is a little all over the place. You will also meet new characters, and characters and plots be totally forgotten.

This is without spoilers

Further, Jon’s take on Frank isn’t comic accurate. Comic book fanatics are constantly shitting on the gripe that Jon needs to be comic accurate. Granted, we have Spider-Man, Captain America, Thor, HULK all in this same universe with their respected attires and compasses. I like Jon’s take on Frank being trauma indulged but the best version of Frank was DD s2, that was the closest we got to Jon being Frank.

[u/Tigkris95]

I have very mixed feelings about the show.

On one hand, I’m genuinely happy Punisher is finally getting more attention. Back in the day, he always felt like the black sheep of Marvel. Hardcore comic fans knew him, but casual audiences either had no idea who he was or misunderstood the character completely. The movies also either flopped, had very little marketing, or both.

Because of the series, Punisher is now much more popular, integrated into the Marvel universe, and Marvel/Disney don’t seem afraid of the brutality of the character. That’s all great.

My issue is that the writers seem hyperfocused on Frank’s military background. A lot of the show feels less like The Punisher and more like a soldier PTSD action drama. Is that part of the character? Absolutely. Is it important to portray? Also yes. But it’s one side of Frank, not the whole character.

I’d much rather see Frank actually being the Punisher, taking on criminals and staying on the mission, instead of the recurring “reluctant hero trying to retire until a conspiracy drags him back in” storyline.

That’s probably my core issue with this version: Frank often feels tired, burned out, and reluctant, like he constantly has to be pulled back into action. Jon also plays him in a very aggressive, rage-filled, yelling/grunting way, which can absolutely be part of Punisher, but it shouldn’t be the only side of him.

So yeah, I’m glad we have more Punisher. I just wish it captured more of the character’s range. Hopefully they improve on it.

[u/AbbreviationsLive142]

Cause Bernthal is extremely inaccurate to how Punisher is in the comics in his own show. He was almost perfect in Daredevil season 2, but he was terrible as “Punisher” in his show. The show is also very slow and meandering. Not to mention they shoehorned in a forced relationship with Karen Page and Frank.

[u/Fancy-Language4242 → u/AbbreviationsLive142]

Ok, I think you read the comics from what I'm getting here, you know your stuff so I get it if you think that it's not good. I also loved him in DD Season 2, but in his own he was very raw, and violent and I kinda like that more 😃

[u/V4L3N7Y]

Mostly it gets compared to Daredevil, which is way tighter and darker. This one is a bit more uneven, but if you’re just enjoying the characters, it can still be a fun watch.

[u/Fancy-Language4242 → u/V4L3N7Y]

DD is amazing, also the villains are actually engaging and you want to see them more and more. I admit, I didn't felt the same with punisher. Basically I watched DD because someone "forced" me to, but im not a fan of movies/tv shows with powers and SF stuff, but DD is amazing

[u/SwvmpThing]

It’s been a while since I’ve watched it. But my general view of this take on the character is negative. To me, the Punisher is not a character like Batman that’s susceptible to numerous very different, equally good interpretations. I think, for the most part, there’s one right way to do the Punisher. Bernthal ain’t it, and the further his Frank has gotten from DD Season 2, the worse he’s gotten.