r/thepunisher • u/BatmanTold • 1d ago
DISCUSSION Does Frank Castle work better as a side character in MCU related projects that’s not his own?
Original TikTok Post Credits: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8poQBj5/
26
u/Justarah 1d ago
It's not necessarily that he works better in other projects, it's that for whatever reason when he's the focus' the creators never seem comfortable making him primarily about the mission.
When he's the side character, his character is relentlessly driven to the mission he's trying accomplish.
When he's in the comics, his character is relentlessly driven to the mission he's trying accomplish.
When he's the focus for TV/Film media, it's always about some emotional fixture trying to humanise him; like his guilt, or trying to protect another character he's become attached to etc
That's not to say he doesn't have stories like this touching on that emotional core in the source material, however those are rare and done within the deliberate context of a man who physically cannot stop his terminator-esque pursuit of his mission because he's broken that way.
By an large, the character as we see him in media/TV when he's given the focus, just isn't that.
3
u/AdventurousArm7802 1d ago
Because he’s a contrast to dd, that’s why it works. When you give him a solo project where he becomes the central character instead of dd for example, you need the character to deal with intrapersonal conflicts
6
u/Divideranger 1d ago
well in that case make him kinda like john wick or a slasher character, john wick doesn’t have a lot of depth or evolved throughout the movies yet people love that, in this case, just have the other characters have that depth and internal struggles
0
u/AdventurousArm7802 1d ago
Marvel isn’t interested in that, they’re interested in making prestige tv. Also, look at the solo joker movie, they decided to go with an origin for a reason, and look how he was done in tdk, same thing, he was a contrast to Batman.
2
u/helloiseeyou2020 4h ago
People saying this clearly don't read Punisher comics
MAX by Ennis is one of the most well-regarded longterm comic arcs of all time. It went for 60 issues with Frank portrayed as an unapologetic, and often unsympathetic, murderous protagonist and never once dragged in its pacing while also finding interesting and novel aspects of the human experience to dive into. Stories that you could only tell with the Punisher.
These excuses need to die. Disney and Bernthal are doing this Wolverine bullshit becaude they want himnto be likeable and don't want to challenge the audience with a complex sociopath. That's all there is to it. That's all there will ever be to it.
You don't sanitize the most provocative and unique aspects of a character when trying to tell a good story, and you certainly dont tell the same cardboard antihero story over and over again in tbe pursuit of good art. That doesnt even make sense.
44
u/Warm-Purchase946 1d ago
Hundred percent agree, but still doesn’t stop me from wanting solo projects on the character.
10
u/swiss_blockade 1d ago
You should wish for a solo project BUT also wish it's not written by or involve a lot of input from Bernthal.
9
u/BatmanTold 1d ago
I honestly do think we should get a full feature length movie rather than another show but thats just me
5
u/Warm-Purchase946 1d ago
Ideally after BND, I would love for them to work on a movie for his Punisher, I hope the set up they did for OLK builds up that tension with Ma and Barracuda. I’d love for atleast a trilogy of some Punisher movies
27
u/HumanoidPhenomenon 1d ago
A few things we can expect from this version of Punisher every time he shows up :
Let me tell you something
Cringey fake tough guy attitude ( try hard boston )
Unnecessary and repetitive Yelling
Crying
Not wanting to wear the suit or even be the punisher but somehow being talked into it again before adopting the role full time ..... UNTIL he rejects it again and goes thru the same dogshit ass arc again.
WORST version of the Punsiher for real.
13
u/Caesar_Rising 1d ago
Number 5 is the real problem. Solo projects would be fine if the next one continued on from the last instead of CONSTANTLY resetting him and doing the same thing again.
17
u/dtdc4456789 1d ago
That is the BIGGEST problem but the way Bernthal is always running headfirst into fights screaming like Wolverine is also a massive problem.
-2
u/AdventurousArm7802 1d ago
The screaming isn’t a problem for me
7
u/swiss_blockade 1d ago
I have no problem with showing emotions and rage, but Bernthal's performance just goes way overboard and is bordering flanderized caricature at this point. Having PTSD doesn't mean acting like a rabid erratic dog.
1
u/AdventurousArm7802 1d ago
What does this have to do with ptsd? Im talking about yhe war cry
8
4
u/Thebatsy18 1d ago
The only time he should be tweaking Is when encountering child predators like season 2, otherwise he just looks like a child throwing a tantrum
1
4
16
u/ValhallaRD 1d ago
The problem isn't Punisher solo projects, the problem is Bernrhal's take on the Punisher.
His low IQ, yelling, crying, grunting portrayal brings the whole show down.
Bernrhal is the wrong guy... they need to get someone mature similar to Jane, Ray and Dolph.
2
13
u/dalekofchaos 1d ago
I get the feeling Bernthal doesn't like The Punisher, he likes what he thinks The Punisher is as a puppet for copaganda and tool of the military, which apparently rang true after his stupid comments.
Ray Stevenson is still the best adaptation of Frank Castle.
6
4
4
u/crustyaminal 1d ago
Because they can just write him as a villain, maybe a somewhat sympathetic one, but still a villain when he's a side character in another MCU hero's story. When he's in his own story, he's a bad guy fighting worse guys, and Disney don't like that.
7
u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 1d ago
Fuck no. Thats like saying you only want Punisher as a cameo or a foil for other characters projects.
He just needs good creators on a solo show
3
u/superseri18888 1d ago
I've always thought the Punisher show was more of a character study of Frank Castle but there may be something to this. He was genuinely incredible in Daredevil season 2 and stole the show in every scene he was in
3
u/GD_milkman 1d ago
They could just make a good Punisher show. That is an option. Just not one they decided on.
3
u/landyboi135 Thomas Jane 1d ago
DDS2 was the best version of the Punisher in adaptations in my opinion. Had Netflix not given Frank his own show or had they got someone who was willing to write a show with the kind of guy Frank is rather than American Wolverine with guns I’d say Bernthal’s take was my favorite adaptation of Frank Castle.
So I’d argue yes. But the true answer in my mind is that nobody in the MCU has attempted to write a solo Punisher story without leaning too hard on making him sympathetic or focusing on his revenge element yet.
5
u/whisperinthewire 1d ago
There are some amazing Punisher stories out there but they do rely on one thing. That normal law enforcement fails. This necessitates the need of the Punisher. I don't think Disney (or atleast Disney writer) seem quite so happy with this concept and where it leads. That Murder can be justified. This is where Daredevil and the vast majority of the MCU is different. As the heros are trying to save save people, stop the bad guy and put the bad guys in a cell. The Punisher is an executioner not a cop where all other MCU heros are more cop like and their story has a happy ending.
I also wonder if there is a line that Disney doesn't want to cross (but have for other heros) specifically with the Punisher, where Law enforcement and Government are complicit in organised crime. So again only the Punisher can 'Solve' the problem at by killing them. Again other MCU heros have had Law enforcement amd Government against them but generally they are arrested or otherwise cause their own downfall. I'm sure there are options for Punisher stories that Disney just are not considering that don't require blatant corruption. It would be good to hear suggests for stories they could make rather than just the continual teardown of the current repeating story
5
2
u/Divideranger 1d ago
i personally disagree like he said it’s a writer, problem, just have frank
kinda like john wick or a slasher character, john wick doesn’t have a lot of depth or evolved throughout the movies yet people love that, in this case, just have the other characters have that depth and internal struggles.
2
2
2
u/RogueKino 1d ago
I think corporate’s concern about social commentary is weighing down Punisher when they give him a solo project. It’s almost like constantly giving a repeated disclaimer about what Frank does is wrong, which I can understand… but it also hinders the potential for his character stories. They’d probably have more freedom with showing him as vigilante hunting bad guys if it wasn’t for corporate ownership trying so hard to be safe.
The pacing feels right for his characterization when he’s a side character, but as a solo project too much time is spent on reinforcing how his actions are wrong.
2
u/SatNight_Special_96 17h ago
There’s nothing wrong with him having an internal struggle and growth. The problem is there is a million other shows doing that. He could be a character on the show banshee for all we know. Half the episodes are the same things as episodes of banshee. The punisher works so well in the side role because he is shown in juxtaposition to those bright morally “clean” characters. It makes him actually stand out more and reminds you he’s actually the punisher and actually a comic book character. Otherwise he’s just a regular dude fighting the mob.
2
u/uhhhidkwhatusername 5h ago
Seriously they need to treat his solo projects like your typical action movie protagonist. Just killing people for a mission and the enemies get stronger and closer to Frank's level every new film/show
2
u/PvtJoker17 1d ago
The Netflix series wasn’t trying to introduce a “comic accurate” Punisher. They were trying to introduce a character most audiences could like, empathize with, and root for even though what he’s doing is morally questionable.
This is one of the things that made those shows amazing. People writing the characters were focused on telling compelling and rather tragic stories: Fisk, Matt, Bullseye, Karen, and even Lewis the marine with PTSD.
As soon as Disney got their properties back they decided to get rid of all of the previous creative teams and start new, so you end up with AI Written dialogue, Matt Murdock swinging around with the Billy club like he’s Spider-Man, Bullseye being nothing more than a one-dimensional killer who has good aim, and Frank Castle cracking jokes with Tom Holland.
It’s like they remembered that these are comic book characters and they are fully riding that train.
While it does sound like they might be going with “comic accurate” this time around, this doesn’t fit with the existing body of work they’re using as a base.
This is why I think it would’ve been a smart choice to re-cast everyone. Perhaps someone who actually looks like the Punisher, and a redhead to play Matt Murdock, and maybe another big dude to play Kingpin that doesn’t look like he’s sick all the time.
1
u/cyberspaceman777 1d ago
I believe so.
It's like hulk.
Awesome character, but not enough meat for a stand alone.
1
u/Cool-Panda-5108 1d ago
It just seems like they don't know what works for a good Punisher story.
In movie/TV terms, the ideal Punisher story would be a combination of Crime Drama, Police Procedural and Slasher flick.
That's why DD S2 was the best as far as Bernthals depiction.
1
u/Dry-Recognition-4507 1d ago
Safalta Vikas most people have you a frequency which get started on the actually Street 2 to the full character
It's probably because most people have a view of print castles character but that kids why fun possible became the punisher and the series which is actually but friend
1
1
1
u/TheManWithNothing 23h ago
The issue is when you make something for a general audience you have to make some adjustments for it. We would all like him just going on a hunt every episode but it would not make for good tv and would get old very fast.
•
u/Binx_Thackery 1m ago
I’ve always preferred the Punisher as a supporting character. He’s an amazing foil to superheroes in general.
0
u/dega_devilson-janova 1d ago
Punisher is a pretty one dimensional character he really needs someone to work off of
58
u/Gonzolok89 1d ago
I love the Classic Punisher with the hideout, who gains intel on his next targets, goes on the hunt, barely makes it out alive or completely liquidates all enemies. But I’m over his trauma, they linger too much on it.
His appearance in Daredevil s2, Punisher was a boss-level character, he was hella dangerous. Season 1 of the Punisher was amazing, after that it’s been going downhill with the drama stories. I’m looking forward to the future of what Disney Marvel can produce with the Punisher, and it’s not more PG-13 stuff.