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Feb 25 '22
Anti invasions
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u/SayOkBoomerIfGayy Feb 25 '22
So pro Ukraine
22
Feb 25 '22
Pro Ukraine not getting invaded by Russia.
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u/SayOkBoomerIfGayy Feb 25 '22
Yeah, what's your problem exactly?
0
Feb 25 '22
Didn't say I have a problem
Edit: unless you're using that in a different to what I'm thinking, then you'll have to expand since I don't understand
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u/SayOkBoomerIfGayy Feb 25 '22
Well I said pro Ukraine and you expanded on it for no reason
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Feb 25 '22
Eh I'm not going to argue this lol
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Feb 25 '22
[deleted]
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Feb 25 '22
Don't we all
Not sure about what you mean by " in almost any situation " but yes I support the invaded governments right to defend themselves.
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u/SayOkBoomerIfGayy Feb 25 '22
Wrong comment, my response wasn't mean for your comment
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u/Spodermon_10 Foreign Feb 25 '22
You have to stand with the Ukrainian people. I can't imagine being in war torn country. Whether you stay and fight or you leave, you end losing so much. They're the only losers. I feel like the others end up getting what they want. Russia wants a puppet country to secure their border and show off while they're at it. US gets to heavily sanction it's rivel, I feel like they've been fanning the flames for this war from a while back.
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u/Ann3archy13 Feb 26 '22
Glad to see someone else realizes the US is actually behind this in a big way... People need a serious history lesson on this topic.
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 25 '22
Pro Ukraine.
Pro Ukrainian people and their hard as nails temperament over the last few weeks, and especially the last 2 days.
Pro Ukrainian military and the badass way they have been fighting for their country.
Pro Zelenskyy and the admirable way he has lead his country during this time.
Honestly, how can anyone be neutral on this? It's like someone being neutral about Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939. Wtf.
And the less said about the pro-Russian votes the better.
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Feb 26 '22
Are you pro-Azov Battalion? Are you pro-Fascist Maidan coup? Are you pro-killing of children in the Donbass?
How can someone be neutral in this? Very fucking easily. Both sides are shit. Putin has recklessly invaded another country, and no amount of care will save people from displacement, misery and death. And Zelensky has allowed the propagation of fascism, and adopted it into the military. His government broke international agreements, escalating the war against an ethnic group.
If you stand with people, stand with the people, not their fucking bullshit governments. Both governments are guilty of murder on a significant scale.
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 26 '22
You're really going to "both sides" this thing? Wow.
I expect a dialogue between you and I will be nothing more than a waste of time for either of us. But let me just say, Russian propaganda likes to push the false narrative that Western-leaning democracies and their politicians are sympathetic to fascism. He's tried to do it with Ukraine and Zelenskyy, because he can't stand that Zelenskyy was voted into office, democratically, with a whopping 73% of the votes. And you seem to be playing Putin's fiddle, with gusto I might add.
You should know, I would assume, that democracies are not inherently fascist. The Revolution of Dignity was not fascist (I am perplexed at how you could call it pro-fascist; but I can see a hint of why in your inherently pro-Russian interpretation of this historical event). And by the by, Zelenskyy has done an exemplary job as a conduit for the democratic enterprise in Ukraine.
Take your pathetic attempt at pro-Putin misinformation somewhere else, thanks.
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Feb 26 '22
Oh, okay. All those swastikas I saw during Euromaidan were obviously a figment of my imagination. As is the Azov Battalion. Just me hallucinating.
I know goddamn well that Putin is using "de-Nazification" as a bullshit pretext. The real reason is to stop Ukraine from becoming a supplier of oil and gas to Europe, as it would cut into Russia's revenue. So I'm definitely not pro-Putin.
Ukraine's government tolerates fascism. That's a fucking fact. Here's your "Pro-Putin misinformation" being touted by one of the biggest anti-Putin outlets around. Very fucking curious. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/world/europe/militias-russia-ukraine.html
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Feb 26 '22
Oh, here's another one. Maybe the New York Times is now being controlled from Moscow!!! https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/europe/ukraine-nationalism-russia-invasion.html
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Feb 26 '22
1
Feb 26 '22
And any government that recognises Stepan Bandera as a hero, is not a government to sing praises of. They can go to hell, along with the NATO arsehats who duped them. Honestly, I feel sorry for Zelensky. He seems like a person with good intentions who was just not bright enough to realise the gravity and meaning of what he was doing. But at the end of the day, it's just an inter-imperialist war. The people matter. And neither governments care about them. Just ask the people of Donetsk who have been in the midst of a civil war for eight years, with none of the governments since 2014 trying to offer any compromise. Nothing more than "we will accept nothing less than complete surrender".
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 27 '22
along with the NATO arsehats who duped them
He seems like a person with good intentions
The people matter.
Some points we can agree on.
it's just an inter-imperialist war
A point we disagree on.
Just ask the people of Donetsk who have been in the midst of a civil war for eight years
Ja, I'm not gonna discuss Donbas with you, because I've already heard your opinion about the conflict, from Russian media.
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Feb 27 '22
Nah mate, my opinion on the Donbass is mostly from opinions of people in the Donbass who have shared their stories on Reddit. What I wrote above was the sentiment of a person who lives in Donetsk.
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 27 '22
Dude, show me where I denied the existence of these far right factions? Lmao. You're having an imaginary debate with yourself. Lol.
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 27 '22
Oh, okay. All those swastikas I saw during Euromaidan were obviously a figment of my imagination. As is the Azov Battalion. Just me hallucinating.
Again, nothing but Russian propaganda from you: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement
I know goddamn well that Putin is using "de-Nazification" as a bullshit pretext. The real reason is to stop Ukraine from becoming a supplier of oil and gas to Europe, as it would cut into Russia's revenue. So I'm definitely not pro-Putin.
And yet all you can do is repeat Kremlin talking points about Ukraine.
Ukraine's government tolerates fascism
You seem to struggle with the term fascist. They tolerate right wing fighters (e.g., like Asov Battalion). But it does not represent the entire Ukranian military, and certainly does not make the military fascist. It does not make the Zelenskyy administration fascist. It doesn't make Zelenskyy fascist. And it doesn't make the Ukrainian people fascists. And let me remind you, that is what, in my original comment, I said I supported (ie, the fighters, the president, the people). To which you tried your bullshit Trumpian "both sides" narrative.
All you're doing is repeating Kremlin talking points. Case in point, below.
From the article above, describing events from the Revolution of Dignity:"The Kremlin describes last month's uprising in next-door Ukraine as an illegitimate fascist coup. It says dark rightwing forces have taken over the government, forcing Moscow to "protect" Ukraine's ethnic Russian minority. The local government in Crimea is preparing for a referendum on Sunday which could lead to Russia annexing the region. Yanukovych, meanwhile, has fled to Russia."
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Feb 25 '22
I’m on the side of the people who has lost everything, being uprooted from their homes and lives and suddenly have no goals, aspirations or dreams as it was shattered by politics and flexing of power.
There are no sides to be taken in war. There is only pain, death, loss and lifelong trauma.
All while everyone is nitpicking over bullshit while sitting comfy in their homes. The images from Ukraine will become less and less as cell towers are taken out, phone batteries die and people become more hopeless hoping for aid. And then? Then we’ll be told all is well and we’ll believe it. Because humans are dumb and we pat ourselves on the back and say “it can’t be that bad” “I played Fortnite and it taught me how to shoot” “News24 says casualties are minimal” “Who wants pizza!?”
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u/ThatBrahBru Feb 25 '22
Fair enough but there has been many unjust invasions and conflicts in the past five years and I am pretty sure then you barely knew it took place. I just believe this is all but selective.
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Feb 25 '22
You are assuming. I suggest you don’t.
Perhaps reread my comment before deciding to judge.
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Feb 25 '22 edited Feb 25 '22
For the 3rd time. Our announcement is not Pro-Ukrainian. It is in solidarity with the people of the Ukraine.
You are asking this poll in bad faith, determined to try to simplify the situation into "only two sides".
Being against a conflict is not pro-one side. We'd do the same thing if Iran was invaded by the US. If Ireland was invaded by the UK. Or if South Korea was invaded by North Korea. Solidarity with the people who are the victims.
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Feb 25 '22
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u/Alert-Mixture Sourcerer Feb 25 '22 edited Feb 25 '22
It's not about pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia. It is about defending the Rule of [international] Law and defending the sovereignty of all nations no matter where they are in the world.
The Russian President has an obtuse understanding of history that he is using to justify his invasion.
https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine
Sanctions, at this point in time, is the most effective way to dissuade Russia from continuing its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
The entire world will be affected by this conflict. Many, many people will be affected by the economic pressures, people will die, people will be displaced.
implicit
It is the morally right thing to do.
Neutrality without a condemnation of invasion in a situation where a sovereign nation is being invaded can be implied as support for the aggressor, especially if an invasion isn't condemned. Look at China, for example. Even the Swiss and the Austrians (historically and legally neutral countries have condemned the invasion) and expressed deep desire for high-level political dialogue.
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Feb 25 '22
I have also unilaterally banned people for racism.
Why are you insisting that there are only two sides? This is bad faith. Is it possible for someone to be neutral in the conflict, but be in support of the Ukrainian civilians?
Is it possible to be in support of Russia's actions, but also support Ukrainian civilians?
We are not picking a side in this conflict. We are in support of the innocent people who are going to be killed or maimed and lose their loved ones in the coming days, weeks and months.
Does that mean we are picking a side? Your poll is in bad faith because it assumes there are only two sides, or neutrality. There are about a hundred sides in this conflict. But no-one gives a fuck about the innocents who are going to suffer. You included.
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Feb 25 '22
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Feb 25 '22
And you are wrong in your assumptions and suppositions. I have now told you this 5 or 6 times.
In anycase this is moot. The majority of the sub are in support of Ukraine in this conflict according to your poll. We'll adjust our announcements to express full support for their defensive actions against Russia.
98 pro-Ukraine, 37 Neutral, 10 Pro-Russia.
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Feb 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Feb 25 '22
Why do you keep on insisting there are only two sides?
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Feb 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Feb 25 '22
You have to be trolling me. Good b8 m8. You got me there for a while, haha. Good job.
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u/ElectroMoe gaming since ps1 :) Feb 25 '22
What I will say is no matter what stance you take you genuinely don’t understand the true motives and the history surrounding this breakdown of relations which has resulted in this conflict and aggression. We are not people who study these sorts of things, there are people who have studied international relations and even they begin their lectures and pieces with “in my opinion”
All I want for is peace in this world but let’s face it, we’re all too divided.
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u/technomod Landed Gentry Feb 26 '22
Imagine if the media gave this much attention for the non-european countries that go through this daily.
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u/GoodmanSimon Landed Gentry Feb 25 '22
I am mostly anti-war.... So that's an easy vote.
More importantly, given the number or wars, and especially, the number of wars on the African continent, I have to wonder why we don't have cute polls like those for every wars.
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u/VikingOfScience Feb 26 '22
Pro Liberation of the Donbas Region, actually, the DPR and LPR deserve their autonomy when the Ukranian Government is opressing them with fascist laws.
This However does not mean I'm Pro Russia or invasion.
But Distilling the issue into a pro Ukraine / pro Russia dichotemy, misses the nuance of this political minefield, and inadvertently absolves Ukraine from their sustained campaign of hate against ethnic Russians living in the eastern most parts of their country.
2
Feb 26 '22
The longer Ukraine and Russia fight, the more the real enemies profit. This was all engineered by NATO and US meddling. Ukrainians and Russians are family. I hope this war ends very quickly, and I hope Zelensky and his pro-western government is removed. He was egged on and then thrown under the bus, and yet despite being used as bait, he still defends his western masters. At the same time, Putin has played his last good hand. He will not recover from this. He needs to go. Russia needs a leader with compassion.
1
Feb 26 '22
I'm trying hard to understand how anyone can be neutral on this violent invasion and the resulting casualties and destruction.
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u/Miyagiyoda Feb 26 '22
Because anything that gets to this point isn't simple. This has deep roots, but the US created Meidon coup being the most obvious start and the US refusing to negotiate on NATO being the final accelerant.
The US (under Deputy President Biden) forced regime change in Ukraine. These are the chickens coming home to roost.
Useful interview @24:47 [Useful Idiots with Matt Taibbi and Katie Halper] How the US Caused the Ukraine Crisis #usefulIdiotsWithMattTaibbiAndKatieHalper https://podcastaddict.com/episode/136010364&t=1487
"Putin is ultimately responsible for whatever horror he unleashes. But save some outrage for those Western governments and officials who chose to make war inevitable by refusing to compromise, sacrificing a country they regard as little more than a chess piece" (ref: https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/with-putins-ukraine-incursion-hawks-in-washington-got-exactly-what-they-wanted)
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u/almostrainman Landed Gentry Feb 25 '22
Pro Ukranian but also anti west.
I understand when Putin says Nato on their door step is a concern, I don't approve his actions but I know that given the opportunity the west will fuck every last penny out of you.
3
Feb 26 '22
I'm quite sure the Nazi's used the exact same excuses that Putin did when they invaded Poland? Sooo are you sure you understand Putin's reasoning?
0
Feb 26 '22
Except this time the Nazis are in the Ukrainian government, and part of the Ukrainian military where they have been committing war crimes since 2014.
1
Feb 26 '22
I've heard this down the grapevine, feels oddly well placed. Almost like it's propaganda, especially considering the Ukrainian president is Jewish.
0
Feb 26 '22
If you heard it down the grapevine, then your opinion on the matter is not one that needs to be considered seriously. The stories are all there. Go forth and read. Read about the Maidan coup in 2014. Read about the killing of civilians in the Donbass. Read about the Azov Battalion. Read about breaking the Minsk Protocols.
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Feb 26 '22
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Feb 26 '22
Ahhh yes. Progressive.org. the pinnacle of trusted media
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Feb 26 '22
Are you denying the existence of this photograph? Do you think these are actors that got dressed up?
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Feb 26 '22
And hearing things through the grapevine is exactly what you are doing now, please tell me you see the Irony in your statements.
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Feb 26 '22
The "grapevine" is gossip. Maybe you thought it meant something else?
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Feb 26 '22
Oh no, I definitely meant through the grapevine.
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Feb 26 '22
So your knowledge comes from gossip.
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Feb 26 '22
Comprehension skills are important when reading? To come back to your point about that Nazi flag and the battalion, I am not suggesting that there aren't a group of fucky individuals, but also that there are some seriously lacking sources on that battalion and their involvement (hence why hearing it through the grapevine is the only way you hear about it at all), while the reason Putin is invading is quite fucking clear, but hay use those horse goggles as you like.
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u/Mr_Anderssen Landed Gentry Feb 26 '22
I listened to putins speech and think there’s some legitimacy to the invasion. Im anti war but war is war and often inevitable but I’m leaning more on Russia’s side.
Let’s not act like the west hasn’t done worse this past decade. I’m also happy that the US is starting to lose their global dominance & influence. The fact that Germany and Belgium haven’t played 100% to bidens tune is a huge thing and good for the world.
Also the US is part of the reason apartheid existed for so long. It’s countries like Russia who assisted us so I have a soft spot for them.
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u/natal_nihilist Landed Gentry Feb 26 '22
What is legitimate about this invasion? The argument that NATO expanding is a security concern is bullshit, NATO has no interest in invading Russia. What it does have an interest in is stopping Russia invading free democratic societies. If it’s the pretext that Ukraine is targeting ethnic Russians in Ukraine let’s not forget that Russia indicted the uprising in the east and supplied weapons and aide to the rebels, and then used the fact that the Ukraine fought back against the insurgents as pretext for an invasion?
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u/Demknowsbetter Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
Being part of BRICS make it a difficult decision
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u/Atmos56 Feb 25 '22 edited Feb 25 '22
BRICS is a trading block, not a military alliance.
Its functionality is limited to economics. Funnily enough it is stated on the gov.za site as this:
"The BRICS mechanism aims to promote peace, security, development and cooperation."
Talk about irony.
Edit:
- taking sides will most likely result in some form of economic backlash, yes.
What I am saying is we don't have a military alliance with these countries.
Regardless of what happens, we would likely remain neutral in any sort of conflict. (Or not. Who knows until or if it happens)
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u/MotorDesigner Landed Gentry Feb 25 '22
We are extremely dependent on chinese trade and theyre a BRICS member. To take a side could have unforseen economic consequences that SA isnt of prepared to deal with.
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u/ThatBrahBru Feb 25 '22
Agreed. I don't believe we should bat an eye for people and a country that wouldn't care less if we were in the same situation. We have to look after our own people, our own battered economy and our own security. The EU, NATO and Uncle Sam have their back.
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u/Mulitpotentialite Mpumalanga Feb 25 '22
Well.....we have trade agreements with both russia as well as pro-ukraine countries, so either way a delicate situation...
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
It seems to me a lot of south africans, particularly the ones on reddit), have consumed a lot of American/European news propaganda, and therefore see Russia as the evil bad guy, rather than seeing it as the more complex situation that is.
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u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle Feb 25 '22
Let me make it easy for you to understand.
Guy with nukes threatens nuclear war = bad guy.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 26 '22
That threat is legitimate. Any superpower would do that.
Cuban missile crisis had America ready to use its nukes. Its a similar situation now - instead of Soviet Union in Cuba, it's the US in Ukraine. US needs to stop it's greedy expansion to the east.
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Feb 25 '22
So Russia didn't just invade a democratic country? Russia didn't bomb a preschool and a Russian tank didn't cross the road to crush the car driven by an Ukrainian grandad. They are literally committing war crimes yet you idiots still defend them. The irony of saying others have consumed too much propaganda. LOL
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Feb 25 '22 edited Feb 25 '22
No, Russia is the evil bad guy because they started a war and are actively murdering civilians.
The complexity of the situation has nothing to do with it.
The situation in the Middle East is also complex, that doesn't mean ISIS is no longer evil.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
Your comparison to of Isis in the middle east and Russia in Ukraine is utterly insane. I implore you to at least read news from a more neutral party - any Indian news outlets, since they have good relations with both Russia and US.
American /NATO expansionism in Russia's backyard is absaloutely unacceptable, China doesn't do it South America or North America, neither does Russia.
Let me clarify: I don't support any invasion of any country, be it America in Iraq, Afghanistan, or China is Taiwan or whatever. But I do believe America and its Western expansionism allies is 100% responsible form the Ukrainian crisis.
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u/rocksp1der Feb 25 '22
I would not say 100% I would not reply in a hissyfit bitchtantrum like the other reply to your comment though either.
Fact of the matter is the Ukraine was cosying up to the West and visa versa despite Russia being against this. Which in all fairness they should have been able to do. With western backing Ukraine felt that it could take a hard-line approach towards Russia and stay it's course despite the threats and warnings.
The main responsibility, I would say roughly around 99% falls squarely in that cunt Putin's lap.
Altogether thought the West and the Ukraine would have been better off in attempting to be 100% politically neutral as a buffer between the West and Russia.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
Exactly. But the west never flat out denied Ukraine acesss to. NATO. Which is absaloutely irresponsible. Great powers need to have their own sphere of influence. But the West loves to interfere and beat the drums of war.
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Feb 25 '22
What an absolutely fuckbrained take.
The people 100% responsible are those who didn't drive a tank over an old man in a car?
Joining a voluntary defense treaty is absolutely not the same as launching cruise missiles at civilian targets.
The only real difference between Putin et al and ISIS is the religion and the clothes they wear.
One of them poisons journalists, murders political opponents, outlaws homosexuality, throws doctors off of buildings, censors ideas, and brutalises protesters.
The other is ISIS.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
Bro🤣🤣
the defense treaty was created to counter soviet influence.
the Soviet Union has ended.
yet, this 'defence' treaty still exists, and ironically is ever expanding, slowly but surely surrounding Russia with American bases.
If you genuinely believe that America is any better than Russia or ISIS in press freedom or any of your democratic, Liberal values then you're genuinely ignorant. Ever heard of Julian Assange?
Asseblief, stop falling for Western Media agenda🤣
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Feb 25 '22
Nowhere do I say America is better.
I'm saying in this situation, Russia is the clear bad guy.
Your pathetic misdirect at "but muh West!!!" shows you've been baited hook, line, and sinker by Russian agitprop.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 26 '22
You still have not addressed my point on NATO expansionism in the east.
You're fixated on the morality of war, and how innocent civvilians are being killed by some Russian soldiers, which is completely idiotic.
I am not talking about that - this situation has been caused entirely by Western expansion in Russia's backyard. Can you counter this point?
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u/ProfessorPanga Feb 25 '22
Wat is Western Media agenda in jou oë? Die fokkenTaliban het gesê hulle is teen die oorlog 🤣
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u/ThickHotBoerie Thiccccccccccc Feb 26 '22
Boet, just stop already. Fuck it's cringe.
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u/MoFlavour Aristocracy Feb 26 '22
I won't🤣
You see it as cringe because you don't understand. Maybe if you read my comments you'll learn something bra🤣
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Feb 26 '22
It isn't clear whether the vehicle was Russian, and it seems unlikely since the Russians had not entered Kiev when this the footage was filmed. Nevertheless, it is clear watching from all angles, that the driver lost control of the vehicle beforehand.
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u/hermionecannotdraw Aristocracy Feb 25 '22
Then please Mr Big Brain, explain to all of us how Russia is not the bad guy? How complex is the situation that invading a sovereign nation and comitting war crimes is somehow okay?
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u/mudpitmissfit Feb 25 '22
Im as anti Russian now as I was anti US when they invaded Afganistan on a equally bullshit pretext.
Fuck war and those profit from human suffering