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Aug 01 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
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u/KyubiNoKitsune Aug 01 '21
I told my mom I wasn't taking her shit and she'd better get the fucking vaccine or I'd cut her out of my life. She has gotten her first dose already.
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u/Mulitpotentialite Mpumalanga Aug 01 '21
Same here, and he has even had covid.....i blame social media.
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Aug 01 '21
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u/Mulitpotentialite Mpumalanga Aug 01 '21
It is true, you do have a stronger immune system after recovering from Covid, but it does NOT mean you are immune to the virus. I know a GP who has had covid 3 times, and then you also have the added benefit of mutated strains (such as the delta varient) that can easily re-infect a person already recovered from covid.
Studies suggest that some people could have enhanced immune systems for up to a year after recovering from covid and by vaccinating those same individuals, their immune responses are substantially enhanced and confers stronger resistance.
Edit: spelling mistakes upset me.
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u/dbaard Aug 01 '21
You're not Imune after the vaccine either. It just stops severe disease. 2 of my dads friends caught it now after being fully vaccinated. I feel we would be better off using our limited vaccines on people who haven't had covid yet. Natural imunity can maybe be supplemented with 1 dose instead of 2. We need more creative ways of dealing with it. Ignoring the fact that natural imunity is pretty good is causing a lack of trust.
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u/Mulitpotentialite Mpumalanga Aug 01 '21
Then use J&J for the booster and pfizer for those who have not had covid yet?
Fact is, even if that idea might be a good one, SA will keep on pushing Pfizer as it is now also manufactured in SA and is a good, although temporary, stream of income for a bankrupt country 🙂
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u/reditanian Ver van die ou Kalahari Aug 01 '21
My mother too. She has just about every risk factor (except being male). She’s morbidly obese, in her 60s, has heart issues, hypertension, high cholesterol, and oh yeah, chronic sinus & airway infections to the point she has to have an op every couple of years to remove the excess scar tissue from her sinuses. Oh and she’s a primary school teacher.
But she won’t get vaccinated because it’s “too risky” 🤦♂️
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u/Leja06 Western Cape Aug 01 '21
My entire family is pro vaccine and vaccinated. Except for my oldest sister. She is also the only one with a Facebook account.
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u/ThePolishBayard Aug 01 '21
I swear there has to be some level of connection or causality with regular Facebook use and vulnerability to conspiracies.
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u/ConsentingPotato Firepool Repair Specialist Aug 01 '21
Reminds me of the lonely island song threw it on the ground, except for hotdogs and cakes it's the vaccine and intelligence.
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u/MiDz_Manager Aug 01 '21
If the west is any indication, lockdown and vaccines appear to simply slow the spread, not eliminate the virus. So 10 more years of this shit seems likely. Arrogant humans will beat nature.
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
And stop death
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u/Pied_Piper_ Aug 01 '21
For real. People seem to utterly sleep on the “vaccines are highly effective at preventing hospitalization, death, and severe symptoms if you do catch it.”
They seem to think it’s all or nothing, either it stops the infection entirely or is pointless. Personally, I’m a big fan of having robust lung function.
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u/TreeTownOke Aug 01 '21
The biggest thing we're seeing in western countries is them opening up too soon with not enough people vaccinated.
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Aug 01 '21
Hmmm it’s almost like that’s the whole point. The vaccine isn’t a cure but it’ll give enough people immunity to not overwhelm the health care system and leads to less death and bad symptoms that need hospitalisation
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u/reditanian Ver van die ou Kalahari Aug 01 '21
I look forward to the day we figure out how to vaccinate immunocompromised folks. Then we can throw open the gates, let people get back to their business and let the stupid die off. We’d all be better off.
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u/Whoisabeltouring Aug 01 '21
I’ve asked almost all my friends and they all don’t want to take a vaccine unless it’s mandatory. Crazy the amount of misinformation people took up their ass
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u/eyescroller_ dual citizen Aug 02 '21
They’ll jump on it when it’s mandatory for travel. That’s when we will see those true deniers jump ship for a trip Greece or Mauritius.
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u/DonniZA Aug 01 '21
Is there a possibility that everyone may be misinformed with the wealth of information out there?
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u/Awdvr491 Aug 01 '21
Happy to be part of the control group.
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u/Queen_Kalopsia Aristocracy Aug 02 '21
There were people who didn’t believe in the Black Plague as dead bodies piled in the streets. Natural selection took care of them, I’m just waiting for it to run it’s course again.
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u/warpple Aristocracy Aug 01 '21
Usually these people aren't well educated so they won't even know what a control group is
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Aug 01 '21
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u/NoNameMonkey Landed Gentry Aug 01 '21
Lost my mom to Covid and I still have family members who refuse to get vaccinated. Pisses me off to no end.
Hell, most of the people I know won't get vaccinated.
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u/KyubiNoKitsune Aug 01 '21
This is an issue that will decide friendships for me, and it has, I have absolutely 0 tolerance for anti vaxxers.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom, I hope you're doing okay <3
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u/NoNameMonkey Landed Gentry Aug 01 '21
Thanks. We are OK. It's horrible but what can you do?
I have written off lots of family and friends due to this but it's even among clients.
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u/FlossilBlood Aug 01 '21
I get what you're saying but this shouldn't be seen like its a bad thing. Every good experiment needs a control group. If people are willing to volunteer then thats great because it removes the ethical question while still providing critical scientific data
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u/iamdimpho Rainbowist Aug 04 '21
... the thing about control groups is that to be scientifically meaningful, they need to be catalogued (demographics, comorbidities etc) just as much as test subjects.
not sure how much random folks refusing to take science seriously and risking infecting themselves and others/variants are meaningfully contributing to science here.
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u/Gokuofuin Dantes Software Aug 01 '21
If anyone wants to educate your fellow man about vaccines then this is one of the good places to start -> https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(21)00298-5
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
Appreciate the link and will read it, BUT this is absolutely not going to convince anyone who isn’t convinced yet.
People against vaccines won‘t read scientific journals. They’ll read some facebook post of their friends that involves a lot of mentions of dance parties and sparkles etc.
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u/Gokuofuin Dantes Software Aug 02 '21
Yes I do believe that will be the case for most of them. But hopefully 1 or two will read it and be better off for it. I consider that a win! :)
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
It‘s a really cool article, however for the non-medical difficult to understand
Can you explain tables 1 and 2? It seems to summarise some kind of effects but what on earth is „VE%“ and „95% Cl“ and what are „primary outcomes“ and „secondary outcomes“?
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u/Gokuofuin Dantes Software Aug 03 '21
The VE in table 2 is Vaccine effectiveness. In table 1 the Cl is confidence intervals, this is a bit harder to explain. But from what I have gathered it can be roughly represented as such: "confidence intervals on estimates of relative risks present special problems since only approximate methods for their calculation are available"
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 03 '21
Ah ok, i didn’t realize that CI was their abbreviation for confidence interval, but if it‘s that then it‘s pretty much the probability of them being right regarding the effectiveness.
In these cases they did the math on their samples to essentially answer the question „Are we confident that the numbers we saw in our sample are reflective of the population?“…
… and statistical analysis would have shown that they are actually 95% sure this is the case. (Why not 99% or 99.9% — because 95% is kind of the sweet spot as otherwise you could run into a situation in which you are overly cautious and pessimistic and also miss reality)
Well, that‘s at least how confidence intervals work applied statistics
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u/Leja06 Western Cape Aug 01 '21
I am shocked at the amount of people that are not taking the vaccine and moaning about when things will return to normal. I had to reevaluate friendships when they started taking ivermectin intended for animals but not taking the vaccine.
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u/Bumbong Aug 01 '21
I get the ivermectin for humans not the vetinary ones. I'm no horse. I'm also vaccinated and taking zinc and vitamin D.
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Aug 02 '21
LOL! Only in Africa!!
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 01 '21 edited Aug 01 '21
Ivermectin is Ivermectin. There is no difference between the Ivermectin used an an anthelmintic in farm animals and the Ivermectin used in the "human medicine". They're just packaged differently. My work colleague's Dad died from Covid-19 about 6 weeks ago. 67, no co-morbities and fully on the Ivermectin train. He died in the ICU. All the Ivermectin advocates and users are doing is creating a huge resistance in the parasitic nematodes that it was originally developed to eradicate. Parasitic roundworms had already developed a significant resistance to it in farm animals and it was creating huge parasitic burden issues in livestock. Abermectin and Moxidectin are macrolytic lactones in the same group as Ivermectin (called avermectins), but they are both highly toxic in humans. Unfortunately Ivermectin is the only safe anthelmintic for eradicating the roundworms that cause river blindness in humans. But now ecosystems are even more flooded with Ivermectin and what was already a dire situation with regards to drug resistance in the parasites is now a disaster. And who will be most affected? The poorest of poor in Africa and all livestock farmers across the world. The long term side effects on the brain from high doses of macrolytic lactones are already known. In years to come, those people who thought they were saving themselves from Covid-19 now, will end up with serious health problems from the toxicity from long term use of high doses of Ivermectin.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22039794/
Edit: typo
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u/PhantomOfTheDopera Aug 02 '21
It's dumbfounding that people advocate ivermectin, something that helps against parasitic infections, whilst COVID is a virus, it's right there in the name.
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
All ivermectin does is mask the symptoms. So when you eventually do hit bottom you’re screwed.
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Aug 01 '21
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 02 '21
The admit on their own website that they have nonidea if it really works and that they cannot conduct any meaningful or proper trials. This is from their FAQ page:
Q: Shouldn’t we do a large, prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled study to “prove” it works before adopting yet another treatment that will not work?
A: There are several reasons why such a study would likely be unethical to conduct at the current time. We agree that further studies can and should be done but placebo controlled RCT’s should be avoided due to the following:
Currently, a total of over 3,000 patients have been included within numerous randomized, controlled trials with the overall signal of benefit in important clinical outcomes strongly positive with tight confidence intervals. This would make the likelihood of causing significant harm to study subjects in a medical research trial using placebo to be unacceptably high given excessive morbidity and mortality associated with COVID-19.
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Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 02 '21
The same thing happened with the Egyptian study, which was a complete farce.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658
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u/DonniZA Aug 01 '21
I read by taking a medicine, the resistance becomes more significant?
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u/PhantomOfTheDopera Aug 02 '21
Yes, that is why the flu vaccine differs every year. The bugs build up a tolerance.
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
Well if by medicine you mean vaccine then yes, otherwise no.
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u/DonniZA Aug 01 '21
Just in general, seems the same has been noted around antibiotics
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 01 '21
Antibiotics are only used in bacterial infections or diseases. Some bacteria can and do build a significant resistance to antibiotics, like the multi drug-resistant forms of TB and those "superbugs" you hear about at hospitals. This is why antibiotics are Schedule 4 in South Africa - they can only be dispensed with a prescription and in the exact dosage. That limits the potential of most bacteria forming a resistance to previously effective antibiotics. Covid-19 is a virus. Antibiotics have no effect on viruses. Drug resistance is a huge problem across the board.
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 01 '21
The parasites it was developed to kill are now constantly exposed to it and have already built a significant resistance to it. The potential harm that is going to cause in livestock populations will be widespread. It will affect meat and dairy production in a big way. I don't need to explain to you why that is bad.
But Ivermectin is not a medicine. It is a toxic substance, registered as a stock remedy only in SA, that poisons and kills the parasites within the host. It's used in a single large dose 2 to 3 times a year. Any more than that will cause acute toxicity in the livestock, which can cause death, but will definitely taint milk and has a long withdrawal period in meat. (Moxidectin is especially toxic in any amounts more than the recommended dose.) These stock remedies were never designed to be taken in anything but one single large, occasional dose. A 600kg horse only needs a single dose of 120mg of Ivermectin for it to be effective. But now there are people, even some doctors, who are just winging it with dosage as a prophylactic and/ or "treatment" for Covid-19. They are literally guessing as to how much poison to put into your 70kg body, just in case, because someone's aunt knows a lady at the hairdresset who said her friend was "saved from dying of Covid-19" with Ivermectin. The potential long term side effects are just too terrible to even contemplate.
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u/DonniZA Aug 01 '21
Doctors willingly prescribing a toxic substance hmmm....
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 01 '21
Yes they are. It's unethical and extremely dangerous. Every dose currently being administered is an experiment by the medical practitioner doing it. The dosages are varying widely in every way. It's just guess work and fingers crossed. It's literally all based on hearsay and anecdotal accounts.
From that 2012 study:
significant toxicity however probably develops only after large amount of oral ingestion. Although the exact mechanisms remain unclear, macrocyclic lactones in large doses may pass through the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to produce GABA-mimetic toxic effects. Severely poisoned patients usually present with coma, hypotension, respiratory failure, and even death. Despite the lack of specific therapy, the prognosis is likely to be favorable unless the poisoned patients are complicated with severe hypotension or respiratory failure.
Covid-19 causes respiratory failure in some patients. If that doesn't kill you then the acute toxicity from the high dose Ivermectin will just put the final nail in your coffin. Merck are the international patent holders for Ivermectin. They have issued a statement saying that Ivermectin should not be used to treat Covid-19 either symptomatically or prophylactically. They have the potential to earn billions from it being effective with Covid-19. But they issued a public statement saying that it has no effect in the virus and is toxic in anything more than the small single dose indicated for treating roundworms in humans. They are literally a so-called "big pharma" company. Why would they give up the potential to earn all that money?
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Aug 01 '21
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u/rogueruby Aristocracy Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
Ivermectin is 100% safe to use as an antiparasitic in one single dose of a maximum of 200 micrograms per kg of bodyweight. The package insert has in bold print that the medical professional who prescribes it for that indication must weight the patient and work out the dose accurately. The trials to establish that threshold showed severe, life threatening side effects with larger doses. These doctors are playing around with people's lives guessing doses and people who buy it from veterinary sources and just swallowing it ad lib are slowly, systemically poisoning themselves.
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u/TreeTownOke Aug 01 '21
I've noticed that a lot of the people I know who've fallen into this anti-vaccine conspiracy theory loop seem to be the ones who get their news almost exclusively from Facebook. Some of them are also glued to their DSTV connections watching Fox and Sky all day.
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
And the WhatsApp groups are just as bad! For some reason, idiots think it's their prerogative to spread misinformation as far and wide as they can. If it looks like a shitty meme created by tannie Sannie while sitting on the toilet, they will share it.
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
Yup. Ant-ivaxxers do research via Facebook. Vaccine creators via scientific laboratories. Go figure.
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u/ObviousPofadder Aug 01 '21
I had covid twice. The second time I used Ivermectin and can confirm my symptoms were much less severe than the first time round. I cannot confirm if this was due to the ivermectin or simply because it was already the second time getting infected.
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
Glad you are OK. Ivermectin does not work ito Covid according to the available data.
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u/DoubleDot7 Landed Gentry Aug 01 '21
Research shows that getting covid a second time usually results in milder symptoms. Most people around the world who got covid a second time did not take ivermectin.
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u/ObviousPofadder Aug 01 '21
Like I said, I’m just adding my personal 2 cents. Use the data as you please
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u/TreeTownOke Aug 01 '21
An anecdote isn't data.
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u/CaptainMisha12 Aug 01 '21
It's called 'anecdotal data' usually - it's not good to use, but it's still data.
'Anecdote' has become the new 'circumstantial evidence' - people don't realise that just because it isn't the gold standard doesn't mean it's completely worthless.
Everyone is biased by anecdotes and circumstance - so it's far better to share anecdotes and discuss their impact than to pretend they aren't there and that we are all beings of pure objective analysis imo.
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u/CarsinemiA Aug 02 '21
Anecdotal evidence incoming.
A friend of mine, 35, got Covid last year, round the same time I did. She had the usual symptoms but managed to recover at home.
She got it again almost two months ago; this time ended up in the ICU. She still has Covid related problems.
So, from what I've seen, second time is not milder.
I sat in the freezing fucking cold for 3.5 hours to get my first jab, even though I'd previously had Covid.
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u/magicturdd Aug 01 '21
Ok but we were told to take the vaccine and things got a little better for a while but now it’s back to lockdowns and masks…
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
Less death for vaccinated people by a huge margin. We need to keep wearing masks for the "control group", but that will not be proper science. But I will keep my mask on even if it saves one antivaxxer's life.
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u/RayneXero Aug 01 '21
If you want the vax, get the vax. If you don't want the vax, don't get the vax.
But you don't get to tell someone what they can and cannot do and you don't get to shame people for making a choice about their own bodies.
This goes both ways of course, but I say it because you will get people that want to pin the blame on others when you really should just be focused on your own life and your own affairs. Leave other people alone and let them make their decisions. I can't stand when people will start preaching from their soapbox as if anyone should listen to them.
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u/Myron187 Aug 01 '21
Yeah I'm all for free will however someone's body image does impact the fate of millions of people. And unfortunately the needs of the many should in this case outweigh their own beliefs, they should be required by law to take the vaccine. You have to protect the majority of people.
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u/RayneXero Aug 01 '21
The issue is that the moment the government has the freedom to override bodily autonomy and free will, they will abuse. They can find any justification to do whatever they want.
"White people are a threat to the majority of South Africans. Therefore, in interest of public safety, all white people should be required by law to be sterilised. You have to protect the majority of people."
Would that happen? Probably (hopefully) not, but once you open that door and allow them that kind of power, then the only thing stopping them from doing that would be their own whims.
Or what about an even more likely scenario? Alcohol is detrimental to people's health and safety. Therefore alcohol is now illegal and consuming it is punishable by law. If you allow them the right to say what you can do with your own body, then you're asking for this kind of abuse of power.
So let's keep the government out of the issue of what one can and can't do with their own body. They haven't had even a semblance of a good track record for not abusing power, so if you give this to them it would only be a matter of time.
Let people who want the vax get the vax. And let people who don't want it, not get it. But people shaming and berating each other for personal choices only creates more division.
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
No, but you do get to tell them they can’t travel to other countries if they don’t get vaccinated 😬
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 01 '21
I'm sorry but I very much do get to shame who I want. Shaming worked well enough to get my father to get vaccinated, it is a fantastic non-violent method to approach fools and the information compromised.
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Aug 01 '21
Congratulations the media has turned you into a spokesperson for a giant corporation.
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 02 '21
Congratulations the media has turned you into a spokesperson for a virus.
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u/RayneXero Aug 01 '21
Lol fair enough. I support free speech so if you want to call a non-vaxxer an idiot then that's your thing. I obviously think that creating this division amongst people isn't a good thing, but I won't tell you what you can and can't say.
In a perfect world we would all get along, but that's just a dream. But in the effort to strive for a better world, I do try to not create unnecessary antagonism between people based on something that should be a personal choice. But that's just me.
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u/ThickHotBoerie Thiccccccccccc Aug 02 '21
I don't mind being divided and separated from antivaxxers...
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 01 '21
I disagree that it should be a personal choice due to its ability to harm me. But in a world in which I also don't trust the government with the power to force people social pressure is the main method of change we have.
In a perfect world everyone would care enough to get vaccinated and we would get along. I care about people's health more than their feelings.
And my father is old and a smoker he needs the vaccine lol.
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u/dbaard Aug 01 '21
If you're vaccinated them you're protected. People have a social obligation to stop people dying but once people have all had the chance to vaccinate thats where it ends. I don't have a responsibility to stop you getting the flu or another disease once you're vaccinated. People have the right to choose what goes in their body without coercion or threat of exclusion. People should look at the evidence and most people should take it but people have the right to go against advice even of its not the right thing. Medical ethics is essential and hasn't been dealt with well in the pandemic
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Aug 01 '21
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u/dbaard Aug 01 '21
We only have phizer and JJ. Not too keen on either as they both had issues and I'm 26 with no underlying conditions
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u/makeorwellfictionpls Aug 01 '21
One of my comments just got deleted by a mod for misinformation 😂 never listed any links or gave false info out. Just said that the vaccines font actually 100% stop transmission or you from catching it, just the symptoms it controls. People like me can see the propaganda from a mile away.
Also the American government gave a whole bunch of black people syphilis and stds as an experiment under the guise of vaccinationing and protecting their baby but in reality it was the opposite. I understand why anti vaxxers exist in that regard, but not because they think their kids will get autism (which is absolutely false)
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u/dbaard Aug 01 '21
Same sent him links to studies that proved my point still wouldn't overturn. These mods are ridiculous 🙄
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 02 '21
Nope, people have a responsibility to prevent doing harm to others. We have multiple laws outlining this responsibility, now there are laws preventing the government use of force in regards to your body but private entities absolutely have a right of association. Threat of exclusion is a non-violent, non-government controlled method of social change that should 100% be endorsed, you shouldn't be able to force me, or businesses, to put peoples lives on the line.
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u/dbaard Aug 02 '21
I dont have a responsibility to stop you catching any other disease. As I said once everyone been offered a vaccine then they are protected if they work ( I think they do). The point is if you have a vaccine you're protected it's an individual protection not society. I agree to being cautious until all have had equal chance to get it but after that people should be allowed to choose without fear of discrimination
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 02 '21
There is no law preventing discrimination against stupidity. There are protected classes and this is not one. You actually have a responsibility against spreading other diseases, you are accountable for example for knowingly spreading the HIV virus, the flu is not as lethal as COVID and by not taking the vaccine you are discriminating against people who medically cannot take it.
If I as a business want to employ them, their lives are at risk serving and employing non-vaccinated individuals.
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u/dbaard Aug 02 '21
By the way I'm for the vaccine will take it myself but people have the right to choose without being discriminated against or coerced. You have yours youre protected. Those who can't generally will be careful like they are for all other diseases. The courts and the health department literally said employers can't discriminate against people who choose not to have it so you're wrong. Yes if you knowingly test postive and don't isolate that's a offense but a asymptomatic illness that you don't know about I don't have a responsibility to stay home when I'm healthy. As I said I think the benefits outweighs the risk for most but there have been issues with clots and myocarditis in young people so some might decide not to take it or they may of had it already. Even when I'm vaccinated I will boycott anyone who asks me to show my medical conditions as a condition to entry and I know many vaccinated people with the same view
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u/RayneXero Aug 01 '21
Lol at least we can agree that the government couldn't be trusted with that kind of power. In fact, not trusting the government is probably the one thing all South Africans can agree with 😂
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
Please tell me how you managed that! I've been trying with my dad - even went so far as to tell him that because of people like him, my mom could die (she's currently battling covid) and it would be his fault. Still nothing. Just replied with some bullshit about the "new world order".
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 02 '21
My mother wasn't quite as far into things, so I focused on shaming him about the fact that because of his health I've had to stay locked at home for safety. Honestly the best thing I've done is try and engage with his news and pivot him toward better sources normally I listen to what conspiracy he speaks about, google it and find why it is misleading and link him other sources of information with less misleading info.
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
Would be the same reasoning for drunk driving: Don‘t tell me what to put in my body and what to do. If you decide to not drive around drunk that’s your personal decision. But if someone else decides that he actually wants to drive drunk then that’s his right and you can‘t shame him.
And if his decision kills someone else that’s just the way it is
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Aug 01 '21
So true. This is an individual choice and should be a choice. Also, the last 5 people I know who got symptomatic coVId all had the vaccine. So delta variant don’t seem to care about the shot.
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Aug 01 '21
you don't get to tell someone what they can and cannot do
In a way that's a core requirement of functional societies. Freedom yes, but the second actions under said freedom endangers others that principle stops. That's why you're free to take a swing at a punching bag, but not at strangers on the street. Strangers right to safety supercedes your right to do whatever you want.
That's also why we've got things like laws mandating notification on infectious diseases that overrule individual right to privacy - cause the actions of one person can fuck over many others.
Forcing people to get injections isn't viable in terms of rights either though so society is reliant on people grasping that the above "one person fucking over many" dynamic of infectious diseases means that it is not at all like so:
you really should just be focused on your own life and your own affairs
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I can't stand when people will start preaching from their soapbox
Should really be in the high school curriculum not internet soap boxes. The only place where freedom trumps everything else is in braveheart and lord of the flies.
/climbs off soapbox
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Aug 01 '21
Would you say the same thing about the argument for or against driving drunk?
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Aug 01 '21
These are not comparable. Stop making illogical comparisons. This is not a seatbelt. This is not a drunk driver. This is a virus. Compare it to other viruses.
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u/lovethebacon Most Formidable Minister of the Encyclopædia Aug 01 '21 edited Aug 01 '21
Ok, how about measles?
Without a vaccination people die. Without enough of the population vaccinated, people who cannot get vaccinated die.
Choosing to not get vaccinated when you are able to is as irresponsible as driving drunk: Your actions will kill other people.
Measles killed more than a million people in 1980. The vaccines saved tens of millions of lives since then.
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u/iDontLikeThisGameMan Aug 01 '21
You cannot blame a covid death on someone who gave them covid. Vaccinated or not. Even vaccinated people get covid and can infect others unwilling. For your argument to hold you'll have to call everyone a killer who unwilling infected others while still taking all necessary precautions. That is a SHIT illogical argument to make.
The virus kills, the virus is to blame. But because it's invisible you want to take it out on someone. Can't blame covid deaths only on the unvaccinated if even the vaccinated spread the virus unwilling.
Not anti-vax. I will publically encourage people to take the vaccine if they have done their research (asked medical professionals). But this type of thinking leads to a slippery slope
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
Actually it‘s very comparable
„It‘s my body. It‘s my choice. If I want to drink a bottle of brandy and then drive on the N1 (and cause an accident) nobody has the right to stop me.“
„It‘s my body. It‘s my choice. If I want to not vaccinate and then go to the mall (and cause infections) nobody has the right to stop me.“
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u/Cachopo10 Aug 01 '21
You do understand that the fewer people who get vaccinated, the more opportunities the virus has of mutating, and the higher the chance of it mutating into something that our current vaccines are ineffective against?
So in fact it's not a matter of people making a choice about their own bodies, it's a matter of people doing their bit to protect others. We need everyone who can have the vaccine to get it, it's the only way we can slow the spread of the virus in all its mutations.
Personally I don't care how many people refuse it, but then we must introduce vaccine passports and anti-vaxxers must be barred from restaurants, bars, and indoor events of any kind, and be forced to wear masks when shopping etc. The idea that it should be allowed to be a personal choice without consequences is ridiculous. Can't let such selfish people hold us all hostage.
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u/Moistery_Man Is ja Aug 01 '21
This is... probably one of the dumbest things I think I’ve ever heard
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u/RayneXero Aug 01 '21
But the vaccine doesn't prevent spreading and mutation though. It just helps you build immunity so that when you do get it, the symptoms are less severe. So even if everyone gets it, you could still get it. So if everyone who is high risk has gotten it, then it's nothing more than the common cold because nobody will die from it anymore. And in that case, then we don't need everyone to get it, just the high risk and elderly. Or did vaccines suddenly stop working that way?
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
While vaccines won't necessarily fully stop the virus from spreading altogether, it does greatly limit it - if enough people get vaccinated. And that's the key here.
People's immune systems fight it off before it can multiply too quickly and spread - thus before it can continue to mutate. So while there is still a chance that it will produce mutations in a vaccinated populace as it can still spread, this does greatly lessen the chance of infections and a lot of mutations happening.
So right now, the vaccine is the best option we've got to fight this.
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
Can you provide the source of where you get the information on the vaccine not stopping the mutating?
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u/iDontLikeThisGameMan Aug 01 '21
Not information about vaccine mutating as I don't think we have studies on that yet. I don't know how it mutates but my shity guess is if it mutates by spreading (which I've heard from some medical students) then the spread among the vaccinated shouldn't have an effect on it mutating or not. Your body will/should just have some better antibody support. The vaccine isn't a perfect solution to all our covid problems
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
That’s actually not true
We don’t know for sure yet to which degree the vaccines reduce possible mutations and spreading
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u/Jukskeiview Aug 02 '21
The problem is that exactly the kind of person that doesn’t wear a mask is the kind of person that doesn’t vaccinate
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u/Manalishie Aug 01 '21
The vaxvangelists just need to understand that the unrealistic wish of vaxxing everyone quick enough to prevent mutation is out the window. Also, preventing transmission and infection is not = 100% vaccination. A lot of us are gonna have to survive without a vax, and we are gonna need the vaxxed people to keep taking precautions as everyone else should, because they are not miraculously impervious post vax.
We should also be shocked at how we have hospitals standing empty while billions are being spent on a mediocre vax rollout. My partner, who is as of yet covid free, nearly died of heart failure last week because we could not find a bed for her in Gauteng.
Thank goodness for paramedics, mobile medical tech and ambulances.
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
Vaxvangelists? Wtf dude. Glad your partner is fine.
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u/Manalishie Aug 01 '21
You know, people who figure now is a good time to cause social rifts because some are scared to take the covax. You'd swear it's Jesus come to save us and their shunning the hand of the Lord. The whole affair has been majorly botched from a public relations standpoint, and the tantrums from those who believe vaxxing everyone yesterday is the only way through this, are not making anything better. They need to go and get those hospitals staffed instead of culling friends.
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u/travis1bickle Aug 01 '21
Replace Jesus with scientists/experts and then I will agree 50% with what you wrote, otherwise 0%.
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u/Manalishie Aug 01 '21
What incentive have people gotten to trust in scientists/experts? There is no source of information the lay person can deem reliable. Corruption is choking out every last bit of competence we have access to with lies, theft, and inflammatory politics. For the scientific minded, adept at critical thinking and sifting out useful information, many things may seem much more obvious than most people see it. This is a very confusing time, and we have capable thinkers being smug assnuggets about it to those who need sympathy.
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u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Aug 01 '21
The fact that they are declared scientists and experts, the government being corrupt and incompetent has nothing to do with the global scientific community.
What reason is there not to trust them?
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u/Call_Me_Miss_Ash Aug 01 '21
Hospitals aren't empty, they are full of people busy dying of covid?
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u/reditanian Ver van die ou Kalahari Aug 01 '21
You couldn’t find a bed in an empty hospital?
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u/HelixtheWarlock Aug 01 '21
Pure speculation but I think it has to do with beds being designated for covid patients, so even if they're empty they wouldn't accommodate other patients.
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u/iamdimpho Rainbowist Aug 01 '21
Is the suggestion here that entire hospitals have been shut down and made exclusively into COVID treatment facilities?
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u/HelixtheWarlock Aug 01 '21
I'd hope not. Again, I really don't know. I am peak social media guessing with my comments.
Might be bureaucracy issues resulting in the beds not being used.
In my mind it makes sense that covid designated beds wouldn't be used otherwise - as it's a very infectious disease which these beds and rooms are setup for.
A big part of the local hospital was transformed to accommodate covid patients. I'd argue it's safe to assume that most hospitals have to some extend.
All speculation.
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21 edited Aug 01 '21
If you’re unwilling to take a vaccine you should never set foot in a hospital or doctor’s room again. Simple. You don’t get to choose when modern medical science suits you or not. You either trust modern medical science or you don’t.
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
Honestly, I don't even care about the double standard. I just agree with this because anti-vaxxers don't deserve to put the health of the very same people whose expertise they deny at risk because they refuse to heed their advice. So I guess if they went to an anti-vax doctor (if someone like that even exists) then go right ahead.
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u/munky82 🐵 Pretoria 2 Joburg 👌 Aug 02 '21
the health of the very same people whose expertise they deny at risk
Vaccinated people carry and spread just as much as unvaccinated people. Actually worse because asymptomatic is higher, so the vaccinated are less prone to isolate if they are infected. There is no public health risk of being unvaccinated.
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
That's entirely untrue.
Vaccinated people can still infect others, yes, but there's a lower risk of spread and, because their immune systems had already started fighting the virus, keeping it from multiplying, they spread fewer virus particles. There's a direct link between how many virus particles you receive and the severity of the infection. On top of that, there's a big chance that vaccinated people's viral infections have fewer chances of developing mutations because it is eradicated so much faster by their immune systems.
So vaccinated people decidedly don't carry and spread just as much as unvaccinated people - which is the whole point of vaccines in the first place.
So, yes, there is a big public health risk attached to being unvaccinated.
Please don't spread lies. If you don't know what you're talking about then read up about how vaccines work.
the vaccinated are less prone to isolate if they are infected
This is the only part that I will concede in, only because people do tend to be less vigilant after being vaccinated, which is a problem. But this is also attached to a lack of education and rule enforcement.
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u/munky82 🐵 Pretoria 2 Joburg 👌 Aug 02 '21
but there's a lower risk of spread and,
It also found no significant difference in the viral load present in the breakthrough infections occurring in fully vaccinated people and the other cases, suggesting the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the coronavirus is similar.
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u/redditorisa Landed Gentry Aug 02 '21
So far, preliminary data shows that this is true for the delta variant only.
research indicating vaccinated people infected with delta are carrying high viral loads — a new phenomenon, compared with how the original version of the virus behaved.
The results of this new study are also based on a relatively small group - an outbreak in a town in Massachusetts where 470 cases were reported. So more information/study is definitely needed.
Patterson said some “breakthrough” infections with the delta variant are bound to occur among vaccinated people, just as with other variants, because vaccination effectiveness — while exceeding 90 percent in most cases — isn’t 100 percent protective against infection and disease.
“Breakthrough cases will be infectious, but the hope is that the viral loads won’t be as high as in someone who is unvaccinated,” he said.
Overall, the spread of the delta variant and other variants is far more likely to occur among unvaccinated people than vaccinated people, probably by at least a factor of 10, Patterson said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/health/cdc-vaccinated-delta.html
The Delta variant is about as contagious as chickenpox, the document noted, and universal masking may become necessary. Still, breakthrough infections overall are infrequent, according to the agency.
On Friday, the Kaiser Family Foundation reported that the rate of breakthrough cases is less than 1 percent among fully vaccinated people in states that keep such data.
On top of all that, if people had gotten vaccinated sooner, the likelihood of the delta variant even mutating would have been lower. Who knows what more mutated horrors will emerge from people who refuse to get vaccinated.
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u/TechTalkTime_ Aug 01 '21
"You don't get to choose when modern medical science suits you or not"- that sounds very dictator-ey of you
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
No it’s not; everything that happens in a hospital has been through the same peer review process as the vaccine. You can’t deem the vaccine unsafe and then trust anaesthetic or any other drug they give you in a hospital. That’s just disingenuous. You can’t pick and choose. You either trust everything or nothing.
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u/notasouthafrican actually a South African Aug 01 '21
I mean modern medical science has never been incorrect since everything passes peer review? Amirite
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u/jndubruyn Gauteng Aug 01 '21
The point is you can’t seek medical help when you get Covid but then refuse a vaccine recommendation from the same medical professional that helped you when you got Covid. That’s just disingenuous.
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u/notasouthafrican actually a South African Aug 01 '21
Medical science is not an all encompassing field which is right or wrong. The scientific method by design is an iterative process. You will never claim something as being completely infallible.
To quote your original statement:
You can’t pick and choose. You either trust everything or nothing.
Your thought process isn't much better than anti-vaxer's based on this statement in my opinion.
There's nothing wrong at all at being skeptic about the vaccine (or any drug) if you're academically honest. It is incredibly healthy and should be encouraged. In this situation, you'll find that the research is sound and that the vaccine is safe.
But you'll find that there is a ton of bad science which does pass peer review. Whilst its your right to trust whomever on whatever and whilst doctors do generally have your best interest at heart, its analogous to trusting Jacob Zuma that he has your best interest at heart because he made an oath on the constitution.
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u/ThickHotBoerie Thiccccccccccc Aug 02 '21
Looks like we're all going ot be OK with this many specialists in all fields ranging from immunology and virology to vaccine development and all sorts... and this is just on reddit so I imagine in hospitals and labs, where the other experts are all working can probably just take it easy and let you ous take over....
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u/Historical-Home5099 Aug 02 '21
And we also now have you, an expert of genital warts according to your previous posts. Things are looking good
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Aug 01 '21
That's genuinely sharp. Never thought of it that way
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u/FuriousDeather Western Cape Aug 01 '21
I'm only holding off the vaccine because I'm not old enough and I never leave the house so I'm way less exposed than most.
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u/FannyJane Aug 02 '21
That’s ok. If this goes tits up, you can’t unvaccinate yourself.
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u/MichaelScottsWormguy Gauteng Aug 01 '21
Does that mean there’s a placebo group, too??
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u/NoNameMonkey Landed Gentry Aug 01 '21
Just had my first shot today. Very happy and wish there were more people getting it. The place was really well managed - it clearly had capacity for at least 40% peoplê comfortably.
I was in an out of Gallagher in less 45 minutes - including the 15 minute observation time.
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Aug 01 '21
Should I go get it? I would if it meant no longer having to wear a mask. I am otherwise not scared and have an exceptional immune system. I am 30 years of age, a very fit male. If I should still get it, I hear it's free? I am completely broke right now.
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u/0301msa Gauteng Aug 01 '21
Did you have an appointment?
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u/NoNameMonkey Landed Gentry Aug 01 '21
Yes via Discovery but there were also walk ins happening.
Came away convinced Discovery should run an events company since their operation ran so smoothly. Them running a concert in with that efficiency would be fantastic.
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u/0301msa Gauteng Aug 01 '21
That's really awesome! My parents missed their appointment at discovery thanks to the riots, which really sucks, so now they're gonna go to the hospital with my grandmother. Hopefully it's still as well done as 2 months ago.
Write a suggestion to them XD
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u/0301msa Gauteng Aug 01 '21
Everything that's happened since this pandemic started has been an experiment (in a way). Never thought I'd live through something like that!