r/norsk • u/dwchandler • May 06 '18

Søndagsspørsmål #226 - Sunday Question Thread

This is a weekly post to ask any question that you may not have felt deserved its own post, or have been hesitating to ask for whatever reason. No question too small or silly!

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u/Akihiko95 May 08 '18

I was wondering myself if there's a willing norwegian native speaker that could enlighten me with the knowledge of the pronunciation of the most common letters combination that are not usually listed on grammar books like, for example, the rs or kj combinations that are pronounced as a "sh" sound. Im not asking for each and every one combination but the ones you are most likely to find in norwegian words. I know I'm asking for too much but that would be valuable information for everyone that is trying to learn the language

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u/[deleted] May 09 '18 edited May 11 '18

<rs> and <kj> are pronounced slightly differently. Here's a list of digraphs/trigraphs that make different sounds. Keep in mind the symbols have links if you're wondering about the pronunciation.

sj/skj/sk(i) = [ʂ] or [ʃ]*

Keep in mind that <rs> can be pronounced exactly as it's written in a lot of dialects, but in the Oslo dialect, it's pronounced the same as <sj> (by a lot of people, anyhow).

edit: as pointed out by /u/Eberon, <sj> is distinguished from <rs> by some and not by others. When undistinguished, it's pronounced like [ʂ]. Some people may have 2 "sh-sounds" and others may have 3. Most people don't even notice or care if you pronounce them the same, so yay?

kj/k(i) = [ç]

The <kj> sound is pronounced sort of like the <h> in "human" in some English dialects, including British English. If you have this sound, it's good enough.

tj = [(t)ç] (is pronounced the same as <kj> in a lot of dialects)

Here's a handy video about the difference

A little heads up: While they are distinct sounds in Norwegian, some speakers do pronounce them the same, but if you're trying sound as native as possible, try to keep them distinct.

Some more letter combinations that produce different sounds: <r> + any alveolar consonant (the effect that also makes <rs> sound different)

For example:

  • r + t = [ʈ]

  • r + d = [ɖ]

  • r + l = [ɭ]

  • r + n = [ɳ]

  • r + s = [ʂ]

A video sort of explaining what retroflex consonants are (all the retroflex sounds are pronounced in the same place; just behind the alveolar ridge)

Here's a nice video about them

Keep in mind that these sounds can be pronounced exactly like they're written in some dialects, but the Oslo dialect has them "merged" like this.

Another common digraph that is the same as English is <ng>, e.g. in the English word "to sing"

Along with these, you also have the silent consonants:

  • The <g> in <gj> and <ig> at the end of a word

  • The <h> in <hv> and <hj> (note: <hv> can be pronounced as /k/ and /kv/ in some dialects)

  • The <d> sometimes at the end of a word and in <nd>

  • The <t> in neuter gendered, definite singular nouns

  • The <v> in <lv> at the end of a word

Edit: also this one

  • The <l> in <lj> at the beginning of a word

If you have any questions about any of this, please do tell. Also, just keep practicing the pronunciation, as you'll get it eventually if you keep trying.

Also to any other native speakers - if I missed anything, please point it out.

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u/Eberon May 10 '18

rs/sj/skj/sk(i) = [ʂ]

Aren't <sj>, <skj> and <ski> postalveolar [ʃ] and not retroflex [ʂ]?

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u/[deleted] May 10 '18

No?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_orthography#Sound_to_spelling_correspondences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#Consonants

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u/Eberon May 10 '18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#Consonants

The Nynorsk version of that page lists [ʃ] as a phoneme of East Norwegian;
the Czech Version too lists [ʃ] as a phoneme of Norwegian;
the French version lists [ʃ] as pronunciation of <sj>, <skj> and <sk> before /i/, /y/ and /øy/;
the Spanish version, which seems to be just a translation of the English one, only lists [ʂ], but not [ʃ].

Basically, only the English Wikipedia excludes [ʃ].

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u/[deleted] May 10 '18

The french version doesn't have an actual source, but I assume they got it from Omniglot like it says at the bottom. The problem there being that omniglot lists <sj> as [ʂ], so that doesn't really help.

The Czech one links to a dead page, and the literature doesn't mention any phonology, only the pitch accent. Can't read any Czech, so I don't know if the czech literature actually says anything about this.

The Nynorsk page implies that [ʃ] and [ʂ] are distinct, but the literature doesn't say anything about it.

Well, anyway. The literature used in any of these don't distinguish between the two, so I can do the (obviously) correct choice and assume that they aren't

Sarcasm aside, the two aren't shown to be distinct in Norwegian, and the sources on the English wikipedia page are more comprehensive either way.

Seeing as they aren't distinct, I could see why some would just transcribe it as [ʃ] without thinking twice about it, because they're such similar sounds.

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u/Eberon May 11 '18

Sarcasm aside, the two aren't shown to be distinct in Norwegian,

By whom?

The only source of the English Wikipedia you can find online is: Popperwell, Ronald G. (2010) [First published 1963], Pronunciation of Norwegian, Cambridge University Press.

When you search for "skj" you find page 94, where he states that s in sk before i, y, ei and øy; in skj and in sj is pronounced [ʃ].

For rs he referes to paragraph 187, which is on page 65. Unfortunately I cannot access that page, but I think it's more than reasonable to assume he distinguishes between [ʃ] and [ʂ].

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u/[deleted] May 11 '18

Hm, interesting. I've controll f-ed <rs> and <sj>. Seems they're deemed different phonemes. My bad. He mentions in the book that a lot of people don't distinguish between them, and I guess I'm in that camp. Anyway, I'll edit my original post