I'm wondering if there will be enough reasonable and rational voices in the Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian churches to stop this error.

If converting to Orthodoxy drives people insane, what does that say about how Orthodoxy is bringing people in, and about how Orthodoxy itself is being practiced in "the west"?

I think calling it "Krazy Konvert Syndrome" is among the worst ways to deal with this problem, because it blames conversion itself for some things the (modern) Orthodox Church (in the west) is actively doing, and some things the converts themselves are doing. Instead of having self awareness, taking accountability and improving, \eyeroll** "Oh shucks, that Krazy Konvert syndrome, at it again!" "Oh, I just did that because of the haze of my conversion!"

Calling it a cutesy name encourages people to ignore warning signs of serious mental illness (like OCD, Trauma, etc). Instead of encouraging people to get the help they need, a very unserious phrase is slapped over it, and people are encouraged to mask their symptoms.

Acting like going insane is a normal part of converting leaves too many people vulnerable to abuse. "You're over-reacting to my [insert form of spiritual abuse here] because you have Krazy Konvert Syndrome [or "because you're too western/proud]" or "He/She can't help his/her terrible behavior toward others in the parish, he/she has krazy konvert syndrome"

I think it's become too easy to slap this label over scarlet red flags. Red flags of abuse (toward the person, from the person toward others), red flags of mental illness, red flags of fanaticism. What if that person is an asshole/abuser/bigot/predator, will slapping a cutesy label over hurtful behavior instead of addressing it help change that behavior? Does it make the parish a safe place for people to keep attending?

TL/DR: How is there so much behavior we all know is unacceptable but no one is responsible for it?

I did not know until recently that John Chrysostom said that a marriage could not be a democracy. I know he is the "father of fathers" of the EO. Here is what chat GPT said:

St. John Chrysostom famously declared that a household "cannot be a democracy," but must instead be a "monarchy". He argued that equal authority brings strife and that ultimate authority must rest with the husband, balanced by the wife's submission and the husband's sacrificial love. [1, 2, 3]

Makes sense that the Josiah Trenhams of the church love his teaching so much. I guess he is the father of complimentarianism.

I just love you guys and I’m so grateful for this sub. That’s really it. Thanks for being the bestest group.

Keep being you ❤️

I've searched this sub and have read similar posts, and it seems my situation is not unique. For the record, I am not exorthodox (or any form of orthodox), but my husband is an "inquirer".

My husband opened up to me over a month ago that he was going to start attending an American Orthodox church because he is fed up with Protestantism and their lack of doctrinal unity. His decision to do so was sudden and sure and completely out of the blue. He thinks the OC has all the answers he needs. I think it's a cult.

I have attended two Divine Liturgies with him, and both were shockingly strange and uncomfortable for me. My husband loved them. He said he has never felt as close to God as he felt during those services. He yearns for the next church happening so he can continue experiencing the "fullness of the faith."

Originally, he told me he wouldn't pressure me to convert, but his actions since that conversation say differently. He's accused me of creating disunity within our family because I did not follow him to a third liturgy (I attended my church instead). He has also been over-the-top with his affection towards me which has been giving me the ick because it feels manipulative.

I have been praying daily for God's will to be done. If He wants me in the OC, I will follow (eventually lol). I just have a difficult time believing He is okay with all of the idol worship and legalism and rituals done in His Name.

I have agreed to support my husband in his quest for "truth". As such, we have a meeting with the priest of the parish he wants to join within the next few weeks. Are there certain questions I should ask? Should I just shut up and let the men talk?

Thanks for your time.

Went to liturgy today at a local small ethnic Greek church. Let me tell you - it’s amazing how utterly non “mystical” the liturgy is when it’s sung by a tone def priest and an abysmal choir. The Divine Liturgys aura is entirely dependent on its execution being done well. In wanted leave early it was so hard on the ear. Anyway - 6 years ago j would have found some reason to find it profound - now without my faith it’s just a cringey cosplay

This is truly frightening. I’m so relieved my children didn’t have to grow up in this dangerous environment.

I want to know if anyone else has seen/experienced this phenomenon, I like to call it the Frollo effect.

I ask because I have a younger guy at my church (literally one year younger than me) who is an orthobro if I’ve ever seen one. More than once, he’s gone off on tangents about how feminism has ruined women, general trump conspiracy theories, alluded to getting into theological arguments online, all the normal things like that. He also likes to think he’s smarter than me but I’ve argued him into corners more than once. The reason I give all this background info is because I can tell he thinks I’m pretty (good taste) but knows that I’m not trad/antifeminist/a moron so he makes his disinterest very clear via negging me or making fun of me.

Has anyone else ever experienced or seen this? Some days it makes me feel like I’m going to go crazy. Other days, it just tickles me pink.

I'm looking for perspective from people who may have insight for me, particularly regarding family relationships.

A few years ago, my sister’s husband converted to Orthodoxy. Last year, my sister did as well. Prior to that, my sister and I were very close. We are still close in many ways, but the relationship has become incredibly strained.

We were not raised with religion, and my parents, while not progressive by any means, never spoke negatively about homosexuality. It was never really a thing that we talked about. As a result, I grew up viewing it as just another normal thing. Gay people exist. Straight people exist. Who cares.

Anyway, when my sister converted, I spent weeks reading up on the church’s teachings, catechism, and canons. I became extremely concerned about some of the church's teachings regarding LGBTQ and expressed those concerns directly to her. My intention was not to attack her new faith, but to explain why certain teachings were frightening and painful to me and my wife. My wife is bisexual. I am a psychologist and have worked with LGBTQ youth.

Soon after that talk with my sister, my brother-in-law called me and he was furious. The conversation lasted over an hour and was extremely hurtful. He criticized my judgment, my career, and my understanding of these issues. He told me I have no morals. He expressed views about homosexuality that I found deeply offensive and harmful. What affected me most was not simply disagreement, but the feeling that years of resentment and negative opinions about me had surfaced all at once.

Afterwards, I remained civil during family get togethers. However, I later learned indirectly that my brother-in-law was uncomfortable with me being around their children. As a result, I have missed opportunities to see my nieces and nephew because of this. That hurt far more than the original phone call.

After months of very little communication, I reached out to my sister and asked if we could talk. She agreed. Not long after, I received a very generic apology from her husband, stating that he was “sorry for any offense he may have caused and not being charitable in our last conversation” I did not respond, partly out of fear that I may once again unintentionally upset him and create more distance.

Recently, my sister and I finally met in person and had a long and emotional conversation. She expressed that she still wants a relationship with me and wants our families to remain close. I expressed that I love her and want a relationship with her, but that I am not interested in rebuilding a relationship with her husband. I don’t wish him harm and dont want ongoing conflict, but I no longer trust or respect him in the way I once did. She was very upset, but insisted she still wants a relationship. She is extremely avoidant however, and I worry that just by saying how I truly feel has potentially permanently tarnished our relationship.

My biggest fear is losing my sister and my relationship with her children. At the same time, I do not want to pretend that everything is fine when I genuinely believe some of the beliefs involved are harmful. Moreover, my wife is not comfortable around him.

For those who left Orthodoxy, or who have navigated similar situations:

How did you maintain relationships with family members who remained Orthodox?

How do you distinguish between normal religious commitment and the ways Orthodoxy may change family dynamics or create distance from non-Orthodox relatives?

If you were in my position, how would you protect your relationship with your sibling while accepting that reconciliation with their spouse may not be possible?

Was it wrong of me to talk to my sister about these things? My brother in law seems to think I crossed a very serious line.

How do you suggest I move forward?

Any advice is appreciated. Apologies if my post is unorganized. This has been an emotional time for me.

Hi everyone,

I have been reading this subreddit for quite a while and was wondering whether to post or not. I am not an ex-Orthodox Christian but I thought my question might fit here.

I have been very interested in theology for the past few months. As I have become more acquainted with the different Christian traditions, I have also observed some of their main theological divides. It seems that Orthodox Christians affirm and value the idea that many of their dogmatic principles and their overall theological view represent the « fullness » of the Christian faith and are free from error (for example regarding salvation and theosis).

My question is the following: what do you consider to be some obvious/undeniable theological errors of the Orthodox Church?

I would like to learn more about the specific theological criticisms that can be made of Orthodoxy.

Thanks in advance guys!

I attended my friends baptism at an Orthodox Church today. I mostly had good interactions with the people I saw that I knew from when I attended there. One woman came to me and was like we haven't seen you for a long time no one knew where you went, etc... I was like yeah I went to the Catholic Church. Her expression changed and she looked at me disappointed and said oh if I had known that then I would have been praying for you even harder. I was just like ok...? Was kind of awkward.

Greetings all.

It turns out that hypocritical actions by clergy or fellow laypeople have been studied in their role in sparking religious switching, disaffiliation (partial or complete), and deconversion. Long story short, anthropologists and scholars studying the cognitive science of religion (CSR) popularized the term Credibility Enhancing Displays (aka CREDs) for religious costly behaviors that either helps reinforce a child or adult convert's current beliefs or encourages them to join a religion.

CREDs include costly rituals, fasting (or other dietary restrictions), celibacy vows, financial and volunteer commitments, and more extreme examples like hardcore asceticism and martyrdom. Meanwhile, religious hypocrisy (including say, clergy abuse scandals against children and adults, the Moscow Patriarchate's sanctification of Putin's aggression in Ukraine and elsewhere, etc.) often serve as Credibility Undermining Displays (CRUDs, yes, that's the acronym, but arguably it's fitting! 🤣).

Hugh Turpin et al., “CREDs, CRUDs, and Catholic Scandals: Experimentally Examining the Effects of Religious Paragon Behavior on Co-Religionist Belief,” Religion, Brain & Behavior 9, no. 2 (2019): 143–55, https://doi.org/10.1080/2153599X.2018.1439087, https://www.academia.edu/38259353/CREDs_CRUDs_and_Catholic_Scandals_Experimentally_examining_the_effects_of_religious_paragon_behavior_on_co_religionist_belief;

Hugh D. Turpin and Aiyana K. Willard, “Credibility Enhancing Displays, Religious Scandal and the Decline of Irish Catholic Orthodoxy,” Evolutionary Human Sciences 4 (2022): e20, https://doi.org/10.1017/ehs.2022.21, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360848182_Credibility_Enhancing_Displays_religious_scandal_and_the_decline_of_Irish_Catholic_orthodoxy;

Jonathan A. Lanman and Michael D. Buhrmester, “Religious Actions Speak Louder than Words: Exposure to Credibility Enhancing Displays Predicts Theism,” Religion, Brain & Behavior 7, no. 1 (2017): 3–16, https://doi.org/10.1080/2153599X.2015.1117011, https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/17250565/LanmanBuhrmesterCREDsFinal.pdf;

Jonathan A. Lanman, “The Importance of Religious Displays for Belief Acquisition and Secularization,” Journal of Contemporary Religion 27, no. 1 (2012): 49–65, https://doi.org/10.1080/13537903.2012.642726, https://www.academia.edu/1590808/The_Importance_of_Religious_Displays_for_Belief_Acquisition_and_Secularization;

For more specific research on CRUDs effecting religious switching, crises of faith, or deconversion:

Kinnaman, D., & Lyons, G. (2007). unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters, New York: Baker Books; 

Jason Wollschleger and Lindsey Beach, “A Cucumber for a Cow: A Theoretical Exploration of the Causes and Consequences of Religious Hypocrisy,” Rationality and Society 23, no. 2 (2011): 155–74, https://doi.org/10.1177/1043463111404673, https://www.asrec.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Wollschleger-Cucumber-for-a-Cow-ASREC09.pdf;

Bradley R. E. Wright et al., “Explaining Deconversion from Christianity: A Study of Online Narratives,” Journal of Religion & Society 13 (2011): 1–17, https://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/toc/2011.html.

I joined my church when I was 18, then was fully chrismated when I was 19. I wish, I guess, that I’d listened to my gut when the homily after Roe v. Wade’s overturn was celebrating that women’s right to choose is being receded. It probably would’ve saved me a lot of heartbreak and spiritual/emotional abuse by an older man at the church (I was 19, he was 25) for 2.5 years. I still participate, one of my friends had me as her sponsor for her wedding, but all this hurt has deeply affected my relation to the church. I’m just waiting until I move away to fully leave the church and take time to understand my own relationship to God, away from where my ex weaponized Orthodoxy and my priest to abuse me.

(My apologies if the flair isn’t appropriate and should be changed to something else)

Has anyone else noticed that extremely restrictive fasting resembles yo-yo dieting, which is associated with worse long-term obesity outcomes?

Just to add a cherry on top; Fr John Whiteford speaks highly of Jay Dyer and has collaborated on YouTube content with him. Can he be anymore oblivious?

Here's something a bit more light hearted than the usual posts which might bring some laughs. The Orthodox Church is kind of one very big episode of Mean Girls.

"On Wednesdays (and Fridays) we fast."

"You're sitting with the Pope? Ew. We're the cool table."

"We're the true Fatih, we're way cooler, and others aren't as good as us."

It's a cafeteria fight, but instead of mashed potatoes it's anathemas. There's even a burn book! Eastern Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, and other very legitimate denominations are on there because they're not "cool." Even the Greeks get listed as well!

"Oh my gosh, look at the Eastern Catholics. They are literally trying to copy our aesthetic but they still eat lunch with the Pope. So tragic. And the Orientals? They haven't updated their Christology since 451 AD. So un-ergonomic. They can't sit with us."

ROCOR as Regina George, walking through the hallways, commanding respect.

https://x.com/TuckerCarlson/status/2060405936523448714

I shouldn't be surprised but here we are....*sigh*

https://reddit.com/link/1tq8q75/video/9ykw30oskw3h1/player

This clip from patristic nectar illustrates the deeply impoverished reasoning found within the church.

He essentially argues that God:
-Loves the peoples freedom so much, that He "created" a place for them to suffer endlessly
-That freedom must be removed in hell, otherwise it could not be eternal.

Using "freedom" to argue for eternal torment is absurd, as DBH so eloquently illustrates:

Under normal conditions, we recognize any self-destructive impulse in any person as a form of madness. It makes no more sense, then, to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them or out of his respect for their freedom than to say a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender regard for her moral autonomy. And, as absurd as is the idea of someone “in a right mind” choosing eternal loneliness and torment rather than eternal love and bliss, the argument becomes all the more insufferably ludicrous when one considers the personal conditions—ignorance, mortality, defectibility of intellect and will—under which each soul enters the world, and the circumstances—the suffering of all creatures, even the most innocent and delightful of them—with which that world confronts the soul.
-That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart

EDIT: The guy in the video is of Bishop Irenei

I didn’t know about Chud until today and I also learned he was a catechumen whilst building his fucked up persona.

What the fuck? Wtf on so many levels but what do y’all think….I need to hear your thoughts. I read his baptism was canceled but still….

I've been Orthodox for several years now. I was catechized at a larger, more cosmopolitan church and then moved to a smaller church after baptism.

The first church stressed easing into fasting and prayer practices over time. Homilies were generally uplifting and short. Church services were manageable, and it wasn't expected that everyone would be at all of them. The catechism never mentioned sexual rules and regulations within marriage, other than to say you should try to abstain before communion. Even that wasn't given as a dogmatic rule. Confession was pretty gentle, and the advice given was manageable.

This is genuinely the church I thought I was joining.

After baptism, I ended up in a different church (long story), and the difference is jarring. Frequent homilies about hell and pressure to be at as many church services as possible. Scoldings on not following the fast. Catechisms that go into sexual rules and regulations.

It's had a dramatic impact on my experience in the church and desire to continue. I don't think I would invite anyone interested in Orthodoxy to visit my church, out of embarrassment over what might be said.

As I was coming into the church and reading books and listening to interviews from those who have converted to Orthodoxy, there was emphasis put on the unity of the faith. While it might be true that there is unity in doctrine and practice as expressed in the first ecumenical councils, I'm finding radically different expressions of the faith in the day-to-day lived experience.

I'm realizing most of those who have been in the faith for a long time know all about these different expressions, but it's certainly never explained to those coming into the church.

I feel rather naive for assuming that all churches would be like the first one.

If I had been catechized in the church I'm currently going to, I doubt I would have gotten baptized.

Found this in the wilderness of google maps. Well so much for the one true church

I’m sorry if this isn’t entirely relevant to this sub but I’ve never been involved with someone of an orthodoxy religion so am interested at how the communities work and also want to see if exorthodox people experienced this!

I recently dated an Eastern Orthodox boy as an agnostic girl. He hid his religion for the first month of our relationship. I could tell he was quite back and forth with his faith and had even strayed for a few years when he was a teenager (he is now 21). Often he would tell me about values that he didn’t share with the church but would be very serious about never telling anyone about it because he was ashamed. His entire family and now all his closest friends are part of his church, and they all have orthodox virgin girlfriends. They disapproved of me.

Eventually we broke up for a couple fixable reasons but he said the pressure from the community became too much and he couldn’t continue. He seemed so extremely hurt but was firm. He needed to find someone part of his religion and culture so he could get married and make his family proud. Now, he has found a lovely girl from his church.

However, I have run into him a few times and I can’t help but see the look in his eyes when he sees me. It breaks my heart. He is constantly apologetic and upset.

Basically, my question is, was it common to see people within this religion feel this sort of pressure to marry within the religion and did most people concede to it? Was it common for them to eventually decide that “it was the right choice” by their community standard?