r/collapse • u/AlbaneseGummies327 • Aug 11 '22

Politics Historians privately warn Biden: America’s democracy is on the brink

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/10/biden-us-historians-democracy-threat/
3.0k Upvotes

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486

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

What democracy?

458

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

The one where you have 2 choices and your vote’s weight goes up as your area’s population density goes down.

57

u/P4intsplatter Aug 11 '22

"What is... 21st century democracy, Alex."

-Jeopardy 2159 reboot, with holographic Alex Trebek

29

u/stedgyson Aug 11 '22

We have the same problem in the UK and many of us are looking to change the first past the post system to proportional representation, is there a similar movement in the US?

119

u/SussyVent Aug 11 '22

Or where you’re vote means absolutely nothing if 50.01% of other voters vote for the opposite team, thus disenfranchising people from voting in states where that consistently happens. The electoral college is incredibly stupid, undemocratic and gives more power to backwards, regressive states over everyone else. Technology is more advanced than carrier pigeon nowadays, how about 1 person = 1 vote for the presidential general election like what even barely functional democracies at least do.

66

u/sauprankul Aug 11 '22

You probably already know this, but ranked choice voting is the solution to the first problem. Winner take all is a terrible system and pretty much creates a polarized society by design.

15

u/Kumqwatwhat Aug 11 '22

Ranked choice is only sort of a solution. It ensures that the winner is representative of more people, but does not ensure that all people have a representative.

Proportional representation is really what you want, if your goal is to represent everyone.

3

u/bokan Aug 11 '22

That wouldn’t work for presidential elections right ?

10

u/Kumqwatwhat Aug 11 '22

Ptesidential elections aren't necessary for a democracy, but you are correct. You cannot have a single democratically elected leader who can earnestly claim to represent everybody.

3

u/Sound__Of__Music Aug 11 '22

You also can't have any single position that can legitimately claim to represent everyone in their district/region. You can get closer through proportional assemblies, but you'll always end up with people whose full interests and opinions aren't represented.

1

u/Kumqwatwhat Aug 11 '22

You can send a group of people per district whose votes are weighted by the votes they received. Or you can not use districts at all and simply aggregate all votes.

There are many solutions people have thought up over the years.

1

u/kyber333 Aug 12 '22

The problem with this system is that a bunch of idiots who live in the city and there is no lack of them will be making all of the policy about farming, manufacturing and everything in rural America. Half the people in the city barely know what a tree looks like let alone can tell the difference between cattle. Higher population centers also suffer from mass psychosis and are easier to control. They would elect Hitler if Hitler ran as a Democrat.

The Democrats are the party of the rich and the elite. You know what the democrats and Scientology have in common, they appeal to people who view themselves as better regardless of all the lies and bullshit that lies behind it.

I mean, your party literally doesn't understand the biological differences between a male and a female. You think hard working Americans should pay for your elitist education through taxes, a literal wealth transfer from poor to rich and you think that truthful journalism exists. Laughable. Grow the fuck up.

26

u/GH19971 Aug 11 '22

Ranked ballots are recommended by few political scientists because they don't change the fundamental slanting toward one party. Proportional representation is a more democratic option used by more countries and recommended by more experts as found in Canada's case study of various options during Justin Trudeau's commission on electoral reform. Trudeau nonetheless pushed hard for ranked ballot voting because he believed that it would favour the Liberal party as they're the second choice of most voters despite being the first choice of only about a third (and much of that support is just due to strategic voting).

2

u/sauprankul Aug 11 '22

As someone else pointed out, it's hard to use proportional representation for the presidential election. But I agree that proportional makes sense for congress.

1

u/bristlybits Reagan killed everyone Aug 12 '22

we could expand the Senate to represent population numbers, but only Texas, California and New York will be ok with that.

7

u/BabyYodasDirtyDiaper Aug 11 '22

Or where you’re vote means absolutely nothing if 50.01% of other voters vote for the opposite team, thus disenfranchising people from voting in states where that consistently happens.

Your vote also means nothing if your state consistently goes for your team.

Unless you live in a swing state, your vote for president means absolutely fuck-all, regardless.

21

u/Toth_Gweilo Aug 11 '22

Ahh gerrymandering

21

u/Rock-n-RollingStart Aug 11 '22

That's only possible because of the way we changed the OG Constitution™:

The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative…”

— U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 2, clause 3

So today California gets 1 rep per 760k while Wyoming gets 1 (lol) per 579k. That disparity gives anti-democratic clowns lots of leeway to dilute the voting power of heavily populated areas that don't vote the way they want them to.

1

u/bristlybits Reagan killed everyone Aug 12 '22

what year was that change

3

u/MeilancholiaThe8th Aug 11 '22

And the two candidates both work for the same group of oligarchs rather than the voter. All democracies inevitably become oligarchies/plutocracies because institutional power can be bought.

-1

u/KeitaSutra Aug 11 '22

Found the guy who only shows up once every four years to vote. What good are primaries and midterms anyway? You people say you want a more direct democracy when you don’t even have the responsibility for a representative one.

38

u/yaosio Aug 11 '22

The one where the ruling class democratically decides how we will serve them.

2

u/baconraygun Aug 12 '22

When money is speech, we have to buy our rights back.

60

u/Comingupforbeer Aug 11 '22

They mean the US will flip from Oligarchy to Dictatorship.

23

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/Comingupforbeer Aug 11 '22

I prefer the original bourgeoisie, but oligarchy is a more accessible term.

8

u/I_am_a_jerk42069 Aug 11 '22

I prefer the American term Robber Baron for American Oligarchs.

10

u/freeman_joe Aug 11 '22

What is the difference between oligarchy and dictatorship? Is there any at all?

15

u/GracchiBros Aug 11 '22

Oligarchy gives people the illusion of choice and keeps people pointing at each other. At least under a dictatorship when things go south there's no debate as to where the buck stops.

25

u/grambell789 Aug 11 '22

in an oligarchy you get to complain. nothing gets done about it but you can complain. in a dictatorship you keep you mouth shut or consequences.

2

u/horse_loose_hospital Aug 11 '22

I assume some dictators are poor...??

(But not for long, eh??)

2

u/ArendtAnhaenger Aug 11 '22

A dictatorship can afford to be more arbitrary than an oligarchy since it's a single person making decisions rather than a small group. Also, dictators are more likely to be driven by outright megalomania than the more profit-obsessed oligarchs.

This isn't a defense of oligarchy, but it's certainly at least marginally preferable to a dictatorship.

I think it's more likely however that the US goes from a plutocratic state masquerading as a popular democracy to an open anocracy rather than an outright dictatorship, at least in the near future.

28

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

In 5yrs:

“You may vote for the ONE party, or work to death in the coal mines”

But hey, if the delusional copium that “it was always bad here, it’s not like it’s gonna get worse” helps you sleep at night, who am I to say that’s not ok.

But hold onto your ass because it can and absolutely will get much much worse

0

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

Well let’s see, 20yrs ago we already had the patriot act, 9/11 and all that bullshit, but since then:

  • We’ve lost Roe

  • Overdoses are up

  • Murders are up

  • police killings are up

  • Income inequality is up

  • a recession

  • a global fucking pandemic

And we had a fucking coup! Shit we basically had two stacked on top of eachother. One dumb populist one and one craven political one.

“Oh but we at least have gay marriage” not for fucking long buddy, Thomas explicitly stated it’s next on the chopping block. And there’s actual political candidates out there right fucking now arguing that everyone in the lgbtq community should be LINED UP AND SHOT.

The Supreme Court Is voting this fall on whether or not the state legislature has 100% control over delegate assignments. And it’s expected to pass. Aka: even if 100% of the population of a state vote for candidate A, the state legislature can legally say “nah we are sending delegates to vote for B”

If you think 2002 is where we’re gonna stop on this shithole civilization time machine you’re comically wrong.

Hold onto your ass friend, we’re going back to the 1880s.

2

u/baconraygun Aug 12 '22

"Why should I bother to vote then I get screwed either way." - Average American.

30

u/Outrageous_Bass_1328 Aug 11 '22

And what is the point of telling him, anyway? It’s not like he’s going to do fuck all about it. He’s to the right of Recessive Ronnie.

8

u/Taqueria_Style Aug 11 '22

GASP

gasp I say.

I shorthand the same statement and I'm literally Hitler.

2

u/Outrageous_Bass_1328 Aug 11 '22

Lol yes. That is Reddit for you…

2

u/whywasthatagoodidea Aug 11 '22

yeah paraphrasing Biden around here will get you tons of people ignoring the man existed before 2016.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

America is pretty much doomed. Racists will not allow the government to do anything good anymore. Insular politics will be the end of this country

12

u/new2bay Aug 11 '22

Yeah, seriously. An oligarchy that initially only allowed white, male property owners to vote is somehow a democracy? SMH

1

u/Sound__Of__Music Aug 11 '22

There is no true democracies on earth if you use the standard of 1 person 1 vote for all matters, and even a representative democracy truly doesn't exist, as there are limitations on voters everywhere.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

I mean, the US's democracy is very imperfect, but only the truely naive would think that there is not a massive amount of democracy that could still be lost in the future.

1

u/djaybe Aug 11 '22

the one that costs many moneys

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

Ah, right, good. That means it can’t get any worse. This is rock bottom and we’re still here so yeah it’s fine.