r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • Jan 04 '20

Episode Fate/Grand Order: Zettai Majuu Sensen Babylonia - Episode 12 discussion

Fate/Grand Order: Zettai Majuu Sensen Babylonia, episode 12

Alternative names: Fate/Grand Order: Absolute Demonic Front - Babylonia

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Episode Link Score Episode Link Score
1 Link 94% 14 Link 4.59
2 Link 91% 15 Link 4.66
3 Link 96% 16 Link 4.73
4 Link 91% 17 Link 4.6
5 Link 93% 18 Link 4.86
6 Link 4.43 19 Link 4.82
7 Link 4.45 20 Link 4.65
8 Link 4.81 21 Link
9 Link 4.45
10 Link 4.55
11 Link 4.42
12 Link 4.62
13 Link 4.71

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165

u/Misticsan Jan 04 '20

Finally, a proper trip to the underworld! The bits we saw in episode 6 weren't enough. And after seeing fanarts of a mysterious blonde Rin years ago, I was looking forward to Ereshkigal's proper introduction here.

Ereshkigal, Queen of the Great Earth (from Sumerian ERESH [Queen] KI [Earth] GAL [Great]), was the goddess of the Mesopotamian afterlife. While she didn’t get the focus that other gods had, particularly those who were the patrons of important cities or nations, she was often mentioned across different stories, and had a major role in two of them: Inanna’s descent to the netherworld and Nergal and Ereshkigal.

In general, the episode seems to borrow a lot of elements from Inanna's descent to the netherworld (or its later Akkadian version, Ishtar's descent to the netherworld), indeed:

  • Ereshkigal is depicted as ruling alone, instead of alongside her husband Nergal, which is closer to the early Sumerian myths than to later Akkadian traditions. Sumerians gave her a husband, Gugalanna, the Bull of Heaven (yes, the same Bull of Heaven mentioned in previous episodes), but he was a mere footnote and he was already dead by the time of Inanna's descent to the netherworld.

  • The seven gates and Ishtar losing her divine powers (or, in this new descent, shrinking) is a reference to Inanna being forced to leave a piece of clothing or accessory behind when crossing each of the gates in the myth, such as her mascara called "Let a man come" or her pectoral called "Come, man, come" (subtlety was never Ishtar's strong point). When she was naked and defenseless, the Anunnaki, the judges of the underworld, sentenced her to death and her corpse was hung on a hook.

  • Indeed, in Mesopotamian religion, the afterlife sucked. It was cold and dark, the food was bitter and the water was brackish. Not even the gods wanted to be there, and Ereshkigal having the dubious honor of being charged with its rule from an early age is taken straight from Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the netherworld. That said, keeping people in cages is a novelty, as well as trying to judge if souls are good or bad; I wonder if it's artisitic license or a reference to Nungal, a daughter of Ereshkigal who was pretty big on those things.

Indeed, the episode takes so much from that myth that it also introduces some lore that it's a bit contentious:

“Ishtar, the goddess of bountiful harvest, can be seen as the Great Earth Mother, symbolizing human life. On the other hand, Ereshkigal symbolizes human death, and is the terrible Earth Mother.”

“Does that mean the two goddesses are two sides of the same coin, and perhaps born from the same deity?”

This idea is common in modern analysis of Inanna's descent to the netherworld, so I don't blame the anime. However, such conclusions tend to overlook the fact that the Descent is not a lone myth, but part of a cycle of Inanna/Ishtar invading the realms of other gods or stealing from them; that family trees in Mesopotamian religion vary from place to place (Inanna herself has like five different fathers depending on which myth you read); that there were other figures in Mesopotamian mythology that fit the "mother goddess" trope much better, like Ninhursag; and that Ereshkigal and Inanna/Ishtar didn't have any meaningful interaction in the myths beyond that tale.

“I’m sure Ereshkigal isn’t a bad goddess.”

Fujimaru is right. Even if she wasn't another Rin, the fact is that, despite being harsh, sinister, and prone to disproportionate retributions, Ereshkigal was like Hades in ancient Greece: feared, but respected, and certainly not evil. In fact, Inanna's descent to the netherworld doesn't end with a praise to Inanna, but to Ereshkigal instead:

“Holy Ereshkigal, sweet is your praise.”

Given that she is basically another Rin, that she is depicted alongside the good guys in the new intro, and that Fujimaru has the Harem Protagonist EX skill, I bet a heel-face turn will happen sooner or later.

58

u/SolDarkHunter Jan 04 '20 edited Jan 04 '20

“Ishtar, the goddess of bountiful harvest, can be seen as the Great Earth Mother, symbolizing human life. On the other hand, Ereshkigal symbolizes human death, and is the terrible Earth Mother.”

“Does that mean the two goddesses are two sides of the same coin, and perhaps born from the same deity?”

This idea is common in modern analysis of Inanna's descent to the netherworld, so I don't blame the anime. However, such conclusions tend to overlook the fact that the Descent is not a lone myth, but part of a cycle of Inanna/Ishtar invading the realms of other gods or stealing from them; that family trees in Mesopotamian religion vary from place to place (Inanna herself has like five different fathers depending on which myth you read); that there were other figures in Mesopotamian mythology that fit the "mother goddess" trope much better, like Ninhursag; and that Ereshkigal and Inanna/Ishtar didn't have any meaningful interaction in the myths beyond that tale.

This all ties into some deeper exploration of the Nasuverse's interpretation of gods.

Basically, in the Nasuverse, the original gods were essentially concepts personified, but as time went on they became more and more affected by human thought and imagination (there is an explanation as to why, but it's too long to detail here). In the Nasuverse, Ishtar and Ereshkigal were originally one deity, but when human myths began to depict them as separate entities, that deity split off into the two.

Generally speaking, newer mythologies tend to take precendence over older ones, as the gods themselves are retroactively altered to fit the newer ones, which is probably why Akkadian myth is receiving the focus here over the original Sumerian myth.

The deal with the Earth Mother Goddess is similar: the original Earth Mother was a primordial deity who has been forgotten (identified in... Fate/Extra CCC I think... as the supreme goddess of Catalhoyuk, whose name is not remembered). But as the gods become less stable and more influenced by humans, that goddess's Authority and powers were continually divided into the various Earth Mother Goddesses of all human religions. They're all tied to the same origin, even if now they're separate.

39

u/Misticsan Jan 04 '20

Interesting. As someone who is also a fan of the lore of The Elder Scrolls, the idea of gods being subgradients of higher entities, or being the personification of abstract concepts, or being affected by human belief through mythopoeia, is something I can understand.

It definitely clarifies a lot, thank you.

9

u/frzned https://myanimelist.net/profile/frzned Jan 05 '20 edited Jan 05 '20

I think one thing that did not get mentioned. Is that the servants are not singular being, as in there might exist a Sumenarian Ianna who is a completely different servant than this Akkadian Ishtar.

Jack the Ripper is my favorite example, there exists the abomination loli Jack in F/ap, but in some other title, jack the ripper dont actually has a physical body and can transform to any version of their legend, including a policeman, a doctor, a woman, etc. and they did transform into loli jack on occassions, which implies ANY one of those versions can be summoned as a separate jack the ripper, each has their unique background (e.g. loli jack was representative of the kids being drowned in River Thames by their own mothers and so take revenge on women.

23

u/[deleted] Jan 04 '20

Basically, in the Nasuverse, the original gods were essentially concepts personified, but as time went on they became more and more affected by human thought and imagination (there is an explanation as to why, but it's too long to detail here)

From my knowledge the gods can be separated into two categories, those who came from Earth (Sumerians, Norse, etc) and those who come from space (Greek, Mesoamerican, maybe Japanese) and what makes them gods (gives them divinity) is their enshrinement by humanity and the beliefs of humanity, which is why even alien gods work under the same concepts as Earthly ones. If memory serves me correct, even in the days that Gods were the Prime Ones of the planet they were still dependent on humanity (which is why they grew vastly weaker after Sefar, since their omnipotence was destroyed, similarly to Arjuna Alter's) and become closer to full blown concepts because of their worship

2

u/ihileath https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ihileath Jan 06 '20

You dropped your spoiler tags.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '20

Not really spoilers for Babylonia in specific, so it isn't really relevant

3

u/ihileath https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ihileath Jan 06 '20

That ain't an excuse dude. Tag your fucking spoilers. The rules of the subreddit aren't just "Spoiler things for the show you're watching", it's "Do not post untagged spoilers." Have some respect for those who don't play JP.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '20

Well, technically speaking none of these are really spoilers in the first place, but instead background lore

The only thing close to a spoiler would be the bit about Arjuna Alter

2

u/ihileath https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ihileath Jan 06 '20

Background lore that hasn't been revealed is a fucking spoiler. What part of this is hard to understand. Just tag your shit.

1

u/onichan_is_a_lolicon Jan 12 '20

What he said, if you only played FGO you will never get these information, not even in JP. They are mostly Fate/Extra Stuff.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '20

Most of these aren't even from FGO at all though, they are bits from a ton of different Fate entries

Bloody hell, Babylonia have been mentioned before they even appeared, all the way back in CCC and even in Angra's Bond CE, and they are still considered as spoiler for FGO

Something like certain gods being aliens is gathered from side dialogue and the like, most of it not even from FGO, that doesn't even play a part in the story for the most part

3

u/maxdragonxiii Jan 05 '20 edited Jan 05 '20

Don’t the ones that come from outer space usually are either: Alter, Alter Ego, or in case of Lovecraftian mythos only so far, Foreigner? That be said, I think a few servants would be potentially summoned as Foreigner if it wasn’t so deeply associated with Chulutu/Lovecraftian mythos.

Edit from Chulutu to Lovecraftian mythos. Although only one is not connected to Lovecraftian mythos in any way, she is still specialized in beating Foreigners up so she transformed into one to beat foreigners more effectively.

9

u/Chaostomb Jan 05 '20

Alter just means some outer influence affected a servant's Saint Graph, Alter Ego is a class made out of an emotion separated from a Saint Graph and becoming its own servant. Foreigners are heroes who are connected to or possessed by an Elderetch Being/Outer God from outside the Human Domain or just originate outside the Human Domain.

The keyword for Outer Gods is that they came from the Empty Void which is foreign to the universe itself outside even parallel worlds. The gods that originate from outer space seem to still be of this universe.

3

u/maxdragonxiii Jan 05 '20

Ah you’re right. I don’t read up on Extra, so I might miss that and go off my theories sorry.

Edit: I added Chulutu since it don’t seem like the book exists as the book series we know of, but more of a real thing if Salem is any indication.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 05 '20

Universe in this case seems to refer to the Universe of Awareness as opposed to the actual, physical universe

For example, True Daemons are similar to Outer Gods and they come from a different planet

1

u/Chaostomb Jan 05 '20

The Outer Gods from the Empty Void seem to have a much harder time trying to interact with reality then Alien entities like Velber, gods from space and Types though. I don't think Salem and the Lostbelts would have being such a big deal if the outer gods were just like Types or Alien gods.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 05 '20

True Daemons and Outer Gods are on the same level of aliveness tho, this was legit mentioned in the materials about True Daemons

3

u/Khaix Jan 05 '20

it's not just Cthulhu, only the second foreigner has a connection with that particular god. The first one is probably connected to Yog'sothoth. The third foriegner has no connection, but a different servant with the foreigner passive is implied to be connected to the crawling chaos. The very recent fourth is probably connected to either Cthugha or Fthaggua, but we're not precisely sure which.

1

u/maxdragonxiii Jan 05 '20

Ah my bad! I don’t read up on Lovecraftian mythos much so any Foreigner with tentacles usually made me think of Chutulu immediately.

5

u/Pulstar232 Jan 05 '20

she is still specialized in beating Foreigners up so she transformed into one to beat foreigners more effectively.

​

She's also from a different universe (Servant Universe) and literally an alien.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 05 '20

She's also Ado Edem

5

u/alicitizen Jan 05 '20

Outer space servants include Altera, Artemis and the Saber Wars cast.

Altera being a fraction of Sefar a weird space creature that murdered the old gods.

Artemis of course being the greek god who we see in her form to appeal to Orion primarily, but her true form as showcased in ATlantis, is a giant space mech.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 05 '20

No, Alters and Alter Egos are different

Foreigners are just entities that are not from this universe, MHXX is one and she is not Lovecraftian. If something comes from space it can be enshrined on Earth and become of Earth that way

1

u/transfusion Jan 06 '20

maybe Japanese

The Japan gods came from mofu

So much mofu they split into 9 other mofus