r/SMRTRabak • u/jooferjupiter CCL • 3d ago
shit post Poll: how would you have named the CCL directions?
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u/ebenezer9 3d ago
To the majority who are not going to the new stations and non-tourists, life goes on on muscle memory. Now when you are at Bouna going to Bishan u know is anti clockwise as people can visualize the map. Service A and B not intuitive. Sian ah harbourfront no more empty seats leow
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u/GreenManStrolling 3d ago
BV going to Bishan is CW
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u/ebenezer9 3d ago
Ewww I got it wrong
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u/GreenManStrolling 3d ago
So is CW and CCW truly intuitive? 😉
I think Yamanote Line's way of highlighting the next 1-3 important stations/interchanges is kinda more useful. Especially as a tourist. Whom the signs are meant for..
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 2d ago
originally LTA was planning to do that, making Promenade, Paya Lebar, Bishan, Caldecott, and HarbourFront as major interchanges (as still seen on display screens). turns out it was not very intuitive to do that since most people don't even know where those stations are along the line
it was then expanded to highlight all interchange stations since they're closer together and hence more recognisable, though some feel that it is still not very user-friendly to first-time commuters on CCL
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u/josemartinlopez 3d ago
Honestly, clockwise/anticlockwise is the easiest to picture, especially for lost tourists staring at the MRT map.
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u/ChardAccomplished689 3d ago
Count by interchange lah, easier read. Instead of Harbourfront or what, just point go say Botanic Garden or Serangoon.
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u/Ashryver36 3d ago edited 2d ago
I think less people understand what inner and outlet loop / tracks mean than clockwise / anticlockwise, just by virtue of being in the minority of countries who drive on the left and also less people drive in sg.
If we went ahead with inner and outer, people will just learn to mentally associate inner is in which CW/ACW direction. Might as well take away that hurdle for some people who know how to read analogue clocks. The rest will learn the association eventually, just as they would for inner outer.
How they show the CW ACW loops are another question all together. The implementation is messy. The arrows need to be bigger. I don't thing they even need to show those 6 stations like that, just draw a big CW and ACW arrow.
They should also change the PSD route maps to allow the CCL normally, so that the CW ACW aligns with the map people see.
Personally, I would also want the services to show via (next station) and (next interchange station). I think this would solve some of the confusion
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u/Consequence-Lumpy 3d ago
would've been better to just keep the old names, easier to visualise
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 3d ago
there are no old names, there was only "train to HarbourFront" and "train to Dhoby Ghaut". obviously with a closed loop that's not going to work
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u/Consequence-Lumpy 3d ago
that's what I was referring to by 'old names'. Would've better to just keep that. As for the stations between HarbourFront and Marina Bay, Clockwise and Anticlockwise is fine for those.
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u/mrfoxesite-2377 3d ago
It is not possible unless you want Harboutfront terminal to become Bayfront terminal and the CCL operates on a shuttle service from Bayfront to Promenade, then sure.
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u/Bitter-Rattata 2d ago
Good steps to using Clockwise, anti-clockwise.
Would suggest they also add the next 3 stations to give passengers a perspective of direction. This is like Japan trains where they name the next few stations.
For example at Buona Vista, can display something like
Anti-Clockwise (via Harbourfront)
stopping at one-north, Kent Ridge, Haw Par Villa.
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u/GeshtiannaSG 3d ago
Clockwise doesn’t really help visualise because half of clockwise is going east, half is going west, same for the other direction. One size fits all is a mistake.
It’s clearer if stations in the east and west are going by north or south routes, and north and south stations are going towards east or west, and throw in prominent landmarks.
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 3d ago
I think your suggestion would cause even more confusion
imagine your on the same train, and suddenly your Northbound train becomes an Westbound train. confusing right? it's better for the train to just keep the same identity the whole way through. and what about stations like Tai Seng or Mountbatten? northwest bound? southeast bound?
the circle line is also geographically not a perfect circle, so the train could be going westwards on the map but geographically going south (Bishan - Botanic Gardens)
not everyone also remembers where each station is relative to the centre of singapore either. the explanation posts LTA posted up today would be 2x longer if we used this concept
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u/GeshtiannaSG 3d ago
Because you know you are in the west and can only go east. So it’s whether you go by the north or south.
Example. Bishan to HarborFront. You are going west, you will go past Buona Vista. You go east, you will go past Paya Lebar. People know these places as east or west.
Bishan to HarborFront, clockwise. What is clockwise? It goes to the right doesn’t it? So it goes to the east first.
That’s how people will think, end up the same way as the first way.
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 3d ago edited 3d ago
this system may work for you but not so for others
the big issue is having to standardise every single sign to be geographically accurate. if you have ever taken the CCL before, you will know that the map is different based on the sign, such as on the:
- system map
- platform door route diagrams
- standing route diagrams
- in-train sticker map, on older trains
- in-train LED map, on newer trains
- other makeshift signs that may come about
you also need to know that linearly-orienting a circular line has not and will never be used anywhere in the world, solely because it's a pain to explain, a headache to understand, and a convoluted mess to execute such a system.
also to your average commuter on the platform, every train is travelling to the right, because they see the trains travelling to the right
a clock doesn't tick southwards, it ticks clockwise
a fan doesn't spin southwards then eastwards then northwards then westwards, it spins anticlockwise
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u/GreenManStrolling 3d ago edited 3d ago
We're notoriously known for not being first-movers in areas like scientific research, known for being reactive rather than proactive.
But somehow in the area of transport signage, we think we're top-tier trailblazers/trendsetters who will surely outdo the transport systems of Switzerland, Japan and The Netherlands. We've been so blessed by the established, intuitive signage conventions in these countries' major cities that we don't even stop to realise that we were blessed while there as tourists.
My take is - don't reinvent the wheel. Take the good stuff from the abovementioned countries and just tweak them to the local context. Our train system is nowhere as complex as Tokyo's, for example. THEY have a far more critical need to get their signage right.
It took a maverick and some social media luck for government officials to accept that drawing the CCL as a circle is better. (Not sure if you guys remember the old way of displaying the CCL). And I think LTA is making a mistake by digging in to the Circle concept where they are not supposed to. They are inappropriately extrapolating, extending, exhausting the concept by doing something (CW / CCW) I've not known any other country/city with a loop line to do. Seems like we have a lot of creative media / creative design / marketing graduates in our statutory boards nowadays.
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u/fatenumber 3d ago
a year ago, lta conducted a survey on which terminology to use ("inner/outer loop" was one of the options). i guess we can assume that majority of those who did the survey chose "cw/acw".
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u/LittleGDS 3d ago edited 3d ago
Believe it’s better than showing Inner/Outer(doesn’t clearly define direction based on the word). Clockwise, Anticlockwise is clear with the directions regardless of where you’re from(even LHD countries).
Right now, I just remember the 5 locations(or even 4) and their position in Singapore, just like compass. Namely Bishan(north), Paya Lebar(east), Harbourfront(south), Buona Vista(west) & Dhoby Ghaut(centre).
Then, I ask myself where is my destination - before/after the 4 locations(exclude Dhoby) - from my starting point. Can think of it as go up or down. Then I based it on the universal clock, and determine the direction(CW or ACW).
Eg.
- Start at Holland Village, going Taiseng. I’m near Buona, and Taiseng is after Bishan & before Paya Lebar. It would be faster if I go CW because I will pass by Bishan only. Going ACW means I need to pass by Buona, Harbour and Paya.
- I will only use map to determine the fastest route if I’m exactly starting & ending on the 4 locations, or if the number of locations are the same for both directions.
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u/Go_Outside12345 3d ago
Inner loop / Outer loop is the most sensible.
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u/Important_Egg4066 3d ago
Why? I had to Google to understand what the heck is inner/outer loop and still have no idea why would it be better than clockwise and anti clockwise.
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u/Go_Outside12345 1d ago
You create two circles.
The inner circle is the inner loop. The outer circle is the outer loop. Traffic hand blind.
Meanwhile Clockwise / Anticlockwise works for left handed traffic
In a country with right hand traffic, the trains would be moving in the Anticlockwise / Clockwise (Reverse of ours).
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u/Important_Egg4066 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am even more confused now. How is inner and outer circle be traffic hand blind when there is a wiki that show left/right hand drive are different direction?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner%E2%80%93outer_directions
And how would clockwise and anti clockwise be left/right traffic dependent? I am at Bishan and I want to travel to Paya Lebar, based on the circle line map remembered over the 10+ years or Singapore map I need to go clockwise direction. Why would I need to think about left/right traffic? What is your thinking standpoint to understand the inner outer loop?
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u/Go_Outside12345 1d ago
> How is inner and outer circle be traffic hand blind
Because a circle / loop does not change no matter which direction you attempt to traverse its circumference.
Try it yourself. Draw a circle on the ground. Walk in a clockwise and then counterclockwise direction. Did the circle's diameter or circumference change?
> And how would clockwise and anti clockwise be left/right traffic dependent?
Go up to an overhead bridge and look at the traffic flow. Ours is left-handed.
Left side: Moving away from you
Right: Side: Moving towards you
Right-handed Traffic:
Left side: Moving towards you
Right side: Moving away from you
You can also do this on a piece of paper by drawing to arrows.
Left handed traffic: ↑↓
Right Handed traffic:↓↑
Now draw a circle starting from the pointy tip of the arrow to connect back to the end of the arrow.
Congratulations you have discovered basic geometry.
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u/Important_Egg4066 1d ago
Sorry how does all of these helps to allow a passenger at Bishan walk up to the circle line platform and see the inner/outer loop and know which one to board?
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u/Go_Outside12345 1d ago
> Sorry how does all of these helps to allow a passenger at Bishan
Please quote which part of my comment did I ever mentioned that I care about that?
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u/Important_Egg4066 1d ago
So it is most sensible in terms of?
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u/Go_Outside12345 1d ago
Naming convention, which I already explained and is the point of OP's poll.
Do you have memory issues or comprehension issues or both?
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u/Late_Culture_8472 3d ago
why you bother?
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 3d ago
bcos signage is interesting
heck there's even a whole unofficial group chat dedicated to debating about the CCL wayfinding and sending feedback to LTA
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u/Late_Culture_8472 3d ago
Leave it to the elites. They are paid to do the job.
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u/jooferjupiter CCL 3d ago
but the elites don't take the MRT, so how would they know if it actually works, let alone know that a wayfinding department even exists?
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u/Late_Culture_8472 3d ago
Works, they will get the credit, Don't work, they will answer for it. Why you bother?
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/Late_Culture_8472 3d ago edited 3d ago
Do some voluntary work to help the elderly or poor families if you are so free. It will be more meaningful and satisfying.
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u/GreenManStrolling 3d ago
They are paid to figure out / distill / brainstorm / optimise to obtain the best, and then to implement it. If the best can (and often does) come from outside their scholarly circles, it's their duty to bring it in and implement it.
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u/Bitter-Ad5765 3d ago
Though it may be unintuitive at first, I still think LTA did a good job naming the directions as clockwise/anticlockwise. I'm sure with time we'll get used to it