r/Genshin_Lore • u/MagicaRinMS • 6d ago
Koitar⭐️ Koitar as an Archangel
I don’t necessarily think this is right, but I’ve been thinking about it and figured I’d see what others think
In Nicole’s About Zibai line, she mentions an Archangel that most have assumed to be Istaroth. Assuming that is accurate, it makes sense to assume that the Shades are being referred to as Archangels.
This made me wonder about Koitar, who has references to Lucifer/Satan in her character. Lucifer is sometimes thought to be a fallen Archangel, which made me think more about whether Koitar could have been one, too.
We know that she is special as far as angels go, being described as the first angel, closest to Phanes, etc
We also know that we have four Shades- Space, Time, Space and Void. But we have five Celestial Authorities, including Reason. It has been assumed that Phanes holds the power of Reason- but what if they don’t?
What if Koitar was the Shade of Reason. She was found beneath Irminsul, after all. That would certainly be a fitting place for a Shade of Reason.
Perhaps Phanes reclaimed the Authority of Reason after her betrayal and created Rukkhadevata as the Avatar of Irminsul to replace her.
This is all pure speculation. But I’d be interested in hearing if anyone can poke holes in this idea, or alternatively if anyone has any supporting points!
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u/GrumpySatan 6d ago
I think its more likely that instead of an archangel, there is a higher rank of angel that Koitar belongs to between the other angels and the Shades/HP.
In artifact/weapon lore, Koitar, Nabu Malikata, LoN, Sybilla and Zibai all seem to be getting treated as different then the other angels. Koitar has visions/meetings about these 5 specifically. Nicole suggests Zibai is a highly ranked, exceptional angel.
Likewise, Nicole says the angels are not gods. But Nabu Malikata, LoN and Zibai are all referred to as gods. So its possible these 5 are gods and Angels.
As Zibai is the "daughter of time", Koitar gets referred to as the "first and fairest daughter" of the heavenly principles. We can also sorta infer LoN having connections to Ronova. Which could leave the GoF and Sybilla for Life and Space.
So it could be something like the high ranked angels all worked closely/directly with the shades
Phanes - Reason - Koitar
Istaroth - Time - Zibai
Ronova - Death - Lord of Night
Asmoday - Space - Sybilla (Sybilla ultimate sacrifices herself to try and preserve Remura against fate, Asmoday's habit of trying to preserve parts of civilizations in temple of space)
Naberius - Life - Nabu Malikata (Nabu Malikata & Deshret ultimately doing everything to uplift humanity and the people of Sumeru)
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u/Gembu 6d ago
A reminder to not take every written word as truth. Figures can be called gods without being one. Its simply a matter of powerful beings being described as gods.
That was a big point with Zibai. She is called many things by humanity which arent factual. She is called the god of soil and grain but with her own admission the only thing she affected was the weather. She is called an Adeptsu without being granted that designation by the prime adepti. And most of her nicknames come from Ziqiao. That said, Zibai has taken on all those names, as she even calls herself an Adeptus in her voicelines.
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u/GrumpySatan 6d ago
While true, the argument for them being gods isn't limited to them being called gods.
Andruis was a normal wolf and Koitar unintentionally blessed him and made him not only a god, but a fairly powerful god.
Nabu Malikata left behind god remains that spread all over Sumeru, and there is no evidence that normal angels leave behind god remains.
So there is definitely a thing where angels can also be gods, even if per Nicole they aren't inherently gods.
We know from Fontaine's AQ that god has a specific definition of someone that holds an authority and receives power through worship, which is fairly general and why Vision holders can allegedly ascend to godhood. Zibai was worshiped as a god and presumably has some authority either from Istaroth or what lets her affect the weather.
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
Oh this is definitely an interesting way of seeing it. I like this idea, filing it away in my brain
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u/Lucky-chan 6d ago
I think the Archangel is Koitar. In the Celestial Gift artifact, she's referred to as the "highest angel of them all," which makes sense since she is the First Angel.
Yet the highest angel of them all stopped by a little preaching hole in the outskirts, for she wished to speak her final words to the first awakened.
This is the CN version.
众天使之长却仍停驻于郊外的传道所，要向最初的觉者吐露最后的话语。
Angel is 天使 and 长 means "chief." Together, it means "archangel." Here, the bolded part means "chief of all the angels."
In CN, the relevant part of Nicole's line is this:
以前阿姐总会说隔壁地区天使长的优秀妹妹。
I'm not fluent in Chinese though, so correct me if I am wrong.
There's also been several references to how powerful Koitar was. Someone else mentioned it.
Ancient Handwriting
...O false master, I once devoted my voice to singing for you, and once I vanquished nations at your behest.
Hymns of the Far North
I call upon you, Koitar truly-blessed, to cast your favor upon our conquests, even as you once subdued all nations with your might.
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u/PeterGyrich 6d ago edited 5d ago
Exactly this. The beta artifact description in en used to say archangel so idk why they would change it to be inconsistent
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u/hadtiah 6d ago
I don't think Koitar being under a Irminsul tree is special to her since the angel Remus found was also under a Irminsul tree
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u/Possible_Priority_35 6d ago edited 6d ago
"When the Doves Held Branches"
When the eternal throne of the heavens came, the world was made anew. Then the true lord, the Primordial One, came forth and did battle against the seven terrifying sovereigns, dragon-lords of the old world. The Primordial One created shining shades of itself, and the number of these shades was four.
- Before Sun & Moon
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Prayer Song I: Pitkamoonen, Lord of the Seven Calamities
O supreme Lord of the Sky, merciless and indomitable, Father of All and Mother of the Gods,Prayer Song II: Maadteraahka, Mother of Life
Hear me, O noble Maadteraahka, mother of gods and mortalsPrayer Song III: Tuonetar, Mother of the Underworld
O Mistress of the dead, slow to be moved and without expression,Prayer Song IV: Laimelea, Mother of Time
O pure and eternal Mother of Time, sovereign who was never born and who shall never diePrayer Song V:
[Missing]Prayer Song XI: The Goddess of the Dawnstar and Apostle of the Far North - Koitar and Seutervoinen
I call upon Koitar, wife of Seutervoinen and first, fairest daughter of the creator god
- Hymns of the Far North
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Note: Primordial One is addressed as Father & Mother, Shades are as Mother of their domain, while Koitar is addressed as Daughter.
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
Bahahaha to have missed something so obvious is kinda hilarious to me. I do wonder about the family tree though. What makes Koitar a daughter and the Shades mothers? I wonder what practically was different when Phanes made them - was it just that they put themself into the Shades while the angels were made solely out of… something else?
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u/hadtiah 6d ago
It is said that the shades were split from Phanes so maybe because they are a part of themself they are higher. It could also hint that Phanes has white hair and golden eyes
And the angels race seems to be made from light, that Phanes created to guide humanity.
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
If the angels were made of light, would that make them light realm beings like the dragons? 🤔
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u/hadtiah 6d ago
Yes. Nicole mentioned that the angels that kept their power turned into the same being as Ursa the drake
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
Oh youre right! That’s interesting I hadn’t connect the dots of this making them dragons
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u/Jesyka_ The Sustainer f Heavenly Principles 6d ago
There could be some backing for this in that Koitar could rule nations in HP's stead.
- Character Story 3 - Yet neither that sovereign on high, nor the sister who ruled the nations in their place, had ever told her what to do when the cold soil was already being choked by a pale calamity that draped over the land like a burial shroud.
I liken Koitar to a princess who could inherit the throne. Much like the Celestial Emperors Daughter/Fischl and Tsaritsa. 👀
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
There’s definitely something with Princesses here too. Makes me think about the Dragonspine Princess and even Abyss Lumine as well. But that’s something to think about later
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u/jotenha1 6d ago
That could make sense, but then, why would Phanes punish all angels for that betrayal? Why wouldn't them also punish their other 4 shades, if they were all related?
Koitar feels more like a really strong angel, but nowhere near strong enough to reach the level of the Shades.
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
A good question!
I’d probably take from Nicole’s character stories to answer it:
But the seed of defiance had long since been planted deep in the souls of heaven's envoys. They had seen the winged ones in the sky sing freely and pour out their true loves and hates without restraint. Fleeting dream as it was, how could one pretend that such blazing passion does not exist after that? How could one go back to singing hymns for the tyrant above, and willingly take the yoke upon their neck again?
And so, the angels, once graced with what was rightly theirs, had to bear the punishment their sins had earned.
Taking this, it’s less about punishing Koitar or even about punishing the angels as a whole, and more about the fact that the angels had proved that they could not be trusted to fulfil their purpose. The fact that any of them could choose to oppose Phanes proved their emotional capacity, which proved that they possessed free will.
Taking away their power and/or wisdom takes away any potential threat they hold.
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u/hadtiah 6d ago
I think they are asking if Koitar was a shade why weren't the other shades punished, only the angels race.
Also the god race was made to replace the angels and they seem to be have more freedom than the angels. It seems like the angels were a prototype and gods the complete version
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
Ah sorry if I wasn’t clear in my answer - I was trying to say that the angels were punished because they presented a ‘defect’, while the Shades didn’t
As far as we know, the Shades weren’t designed to lack free will, so one revolting wouldn’t inherently mean that they all need to be thrown out
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u/panetony 6d ago
Shades were his creations, angels were made by Nibelung. Phanes tried to reproduce what angels (moons) were but separated their powers in a reasonable way so he could control it: the 4 shades and the 4 major concepts they represent. He probably couldn't recreate/emulate full angels because angels were made only to love humanity, and love is not reasonable. Is a concept beyond reason. Phanes couldn't understand when angels "betrayed" him cause he coudn't understand love, so he punished them. And it makes sense Love is the divine throne that most wants him gone. Love beats order, love beats reason.
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u/Better-Movie-7736 6d ago
I think She was count as Archangel with Shades but I don't think She was Shade herself
She was the Closest Angel to Phanas that ruled in their place.
Shades were responsible for their Domains while Koitar was responsible for all humanity
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u/Meovalu 6d ago
Archangel generally means angels of higher ranking or order. Depends on the system of believe, the definition and numbers of Archangel can vary. The three main ones are Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. Another popular one is Uriel. Lucifer, depends on the system of believe, may or may not be an Archangel. Depends on the system, archangel aren't always the highest in the hierarchy.
We currently have way too little info about the term Archangel being used in Genshin. With the new info we learnt in Amsvartnir, she has regained her memories and will probably play a significant role in the future. We wil have to wait for more info from Nicole or directly from her in the future. But Koitar connection to Lucifer is of course, very clear.
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u/Inevitable_Question Yae Publishing House 4d ago
There was never allusion to 5th Shade. Not in Before the Sun and Moon, not by Shades themselves.
I think that Koitar was highest-ranking Angel. Still below Shades, but close in status.
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u/panetony 6d ago
Could Paimon be koitar “human-self” and tsaritsa be divine-self? Or the contrary
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u/MagicaRinMS 6d ago
I’m not sure about this, but I do have a lot of thoughts about Koitar-Tsaritsa parallels! I definitely think there’s some kind of connection there, though right now I’m leaning more towards Tsaritsa as the inheritor of Koitar’s legacy / struggle, and the Tsaritsa being the Fae that can ‘merge with the world’ that Koitar was trying to create in Hyperborea
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u/AudieMurphy135 Teyvat has its own laws 6d ago
On the topic of archangels, the Hydromancy summoning circle says "GBL URL MKL RPL" on the outer ring, which refers to the names of the archangels Gabriel, Uriel, Michael, and Raphael.
https://i.postimg.cc/vQFXMw4q/barbeloth.png