r/AntiVegan • u/valonianfool trying to learn • 3d ago
Discussion Could you have a civil discussion with a vegan?
I mean no hate towards the OP, and I think theyre reasonable, but would still like some perspectives on what they said here.
I want to know if you think, or has had a civil discussion with a vegan that led to realizing where your views align welfare-wise.
Ive talked to a vegan regarding animal rights vs welfare and although our conversation was quite civil, it didn't really change my perspective. They brought up long-debunked sources like "livestock's long shadow", the Poore and Nemececk study, talked about "factory farms" as a scary buzzword, claims that beekeepers exploit bees.
According to themselves, they became vegan after watching Earthling Eds video on dairy farming.
In short, the vegan I talked to had good intentions, but I feel that they are severely misinformed when it comes to the reality of what animal agriculture is like, and fell for a grifter.
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u/panderp 3d ago
I don't think I've ever had a good discussion with a vegan *about veganism*. Because when it becomes clear that even if they aren't saying it, the other person thinks you're a akin to a murderer/rapist/cetera, it's corrosive to any further discussion.
Knowing how they think about you, changes how you think about them. Same reason I haven't had a good discussion with someone who thinks my being transgender is some ploy to ruin America's Children.
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u/maarshiexcry local leftist <3 2d ago
Person in pic sounds like a vegan posing as non-vegan, esp the "i dont mind the crazy vegans" part.
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u/Timely_Community2142 2d ago edited 2d ago
Depends on what kind of vegans they are. Did they become vegan for animals?
If yes, then there is no "civil" discussions with such vegans, if and when their intention is to not acknowledge your point of view and experience, and use emotionally loaded words, narratives and rhetoric constantly.
They can pretend to seem interested and be civil, or ask leading socratic questions, but what they are doing is gathering information and using your answers back against you. They don't really care about what you have to say because they believe veganism narratives are objectively moral and right and therefore as long as you disagree with them, they will deem you are wrong or uninformed or lack empathy/compassion. Veganism is a very subjective topic that can be defined by anyone to make it mean anything they want.
The rhetoric is all appeal to emotions eg. "how can anyone know about this and still not be a vegan?" is fallacious where they create an axiomatic narrative where there is only 2 (binary) choices in life : Thiers and everyone else.
when vegans use words like "harm", "forced impregnation", "rape", "Sexual assault", "no consent", "animals don't want to die", "slavery", "genocide/holocaust", "pain", "suffering", etc, without specifying that this is their opinion, and without specifying the context, it always feel like they are being intellectually dishonest intentionally, because they knew these words carry negative and immoral connotation to load their narratives unfairly.
When they use specific loaded words, they are removing every context and applying the definition to every scenario. eg "harm". The rhetoric is that harm is wrong, so when we are on omnivore diet, animals are "harmed", so omnivore diet is "wrong". these are subjective words that anyone can self define to change the context to make it "right", but vegans don't want that. They want their intended effects. giving context, reduces the effectiveness of their rhetoric. it is all bad faith.
Even if what they say is true, there's still assumptions and bias and still context based. the main thing is that they are not open to see from your point of view, neither do they believe you or think you did it right, or all these doesn't matter as long as animals are "harmed".
And the worst of all, they will justify their dishonesty as good because it is for a "moral" cause to go against the "injustice of the world", so them using immoral tactics is justified in their eyes.
All these come about from the flawed veganism philosophy and ideology.
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u/Cargobiker530 3d ago
The vegans in my family do not "discuss;" they monologue, manipulate, yell, & threaten. I have met other vegans that have the what you eat is yours to deal with attitude but they're rare.