r/ZenFreeLands Dec 14 '24

Where is naturalism wrong

2 Upvotes

I often encounter some kind of "folk zen" with following features:
We are good (or perfect) as we are, we are supposed to do nothing, whole purpose of zen is to point at our ordinary beings/lives/bodies/minds as these are something sacred/only worth attention. In my opinion this some kind of christian Trojan horse, when people missing their god/Jesus/love (whatever they can miss), try to implant their "Jesus loves you bro" into zen.
So why this is not zen?
First obviously, there is no any connection, it's completely made up. I can ad hoc connect anything to anything, as human mind is pretty flexible and doesn't still have any security features.
Second zen masters are not pointing at their/our selves simply because they are sect of renunciant Buddhist monks. Buddhists consider selfishness and egoism direct obstacle on path.
Third, zen as esoteric Buddhism is from big part about freeing mind by stripping it from attachments. But if I experimentally try this technique above, Jesus instructing me to love myself, I get right opposite result: So I am completely OK and all my attachments are meaning of my life.
I don't claim that Christian approach is wrong, I only claim that it's not compatible with zen.
Could I love myself and practice zen? Well, I think kind of... In the moment I see clearly my mind and how it works, processes are quite fluid. If necessary, I can apply a lot love to myself (I could also eat 1kg of sugar if necessary:) Permanently I am keeping good outlook at myself as it looks for me like most easy way. But it's not purpose of zen, and one of conditions leading to realization is about freeing themselves from rigid system of attachments, including to self.

r/dhyana 22h ago

SPOOKY BOB RULES! STOLEN FROM STEAM WORKSHOP.

2 Upvotes

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░░░▌░▄▄▄▐▌▀▀▀░░ THIS IS SPOOKY BOB
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▀█▌░░░▄░▀█▀░▀ ░░ COPY AND PASTE HIM,
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1

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error
 in  r/ZenFreeLands  22h ago

I am looking for, as you say, what is already understood. I have 110% experiential side and underdeveloped theoretical/conceptual side. Most likely because I didn't start with Buddhism at all, but only with meditation.
Btw. Yogacara sucks, they managed even install atman in the form of one of their made up consciousnesses.

1

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error
 in  r/ZenFreeLands  23h ago

Weird that your comment is not visible, I checked if you are blocked or banned and it doesn't seem so. Aren't you shadow banned site-wide? Because I don't see your comments when logged out.

1

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error
 in  r/ZenFreeLands  1d ago

Gemini: The anti-formalist rhetoric of figures like Linji was a pedagogical medicine aimed at advanced students who were already overly attached to their discipline; it was not a documentary description of daily monastic life. Behind the texts, the physical and institutional prerequisites were incredibly rigid and functioned as a psychological pressure cooker.

The primary actual prerequisite was total immersion in a highly regulated institutional container, governed by the traditional Dharmaguptaka Vinaya and the emerging Chan "Rules of Purity" (Qinggui). Monks did not wander freely acting eccentrically; they lived in strictly regimented communities where every hour of sleep, diet, and movement was externally controlled. This extreme physical restriction removed all worldly variables, forcing the mind to confront its own internal dualism without any available avenues for escapism. While Linji mocked those who clung to purity, strict adherence to the rules was the absolute baseline condition that kept the student trapped in the specific environment where the master's deconstructive teaching could be applied.

Despite the relentless textual attacks on "blind baldies" sitting in trances, the historical reality is that extensive seated meditation (zuochan) was a mandatory daily prerequisite. Monastic halls were physically designed around long meditation platforms, and monks spent hours each day strictly observing the posture. The Chan rhetoric against sitting was not an instruction to physically abandon the practice, but a severe warning against treating the posture as a transactional currency to "buy" spiritual merit or using it to forcefully suppress thoughts into a dead, blank state. The physical sitting was the required physiological baseline to stabilize the mind enough to engage with the master's radical intellectual challenges.

A further practical prerequisite was mandatory physical labor (puqing), historically associated with Baizhang Huaihai's dictum, "A day without work is a day without food." Monks were required to farm, chop wood, and maintain the monastery infrastructure. This was not merely an economic necessity but a deliberate epistemological tool. Intensive manual labor forced the monks out of abstract, intellectual philosophy and grounded their attention entirely in the immediate, physical present. The true, historical prerequisites were therefore extreme discipline, relentless physical work, and continuous meditation, all operating simultaneously to drive the student's intellect to the exact point of total exhaustion required for the phenomenological collapse.

1

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error
 in  r/ZenFreeLands  1d ago

Btw I am not big fan of Yogacara, but they should be at least sometimes right, right?

1

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error
 in  r/ZenFreeLands  1d ago

Gemini: Your metaphor of a compass showing directions without suggesting them captures the Chan and Yogacara phenomenological models of an awakened mind. When the self-referencing feedback loop collapses, the cognitive mechanism is not destroyed; rather, it is demoted from its assumed role as the "root operating system" to a purely instrumental function.

The Transformation of Consciousness:
In the Yogacara framework utilized by Chan masters, this shift is formally described as the transformation of consciousness into direct wisdom (prajñā). The seventh consciousness (manas), which previously acted as the root operating system by constantly generating the "clinging superstructure" of a subjective ego, ceases its localized grasping. The remaining cognitive and sensory mechanisms (the intellect and the five senses) continue to function perfectly, but they are no longer hijacked by the manas to serve a fabricated "self."

The Mirror vs. The Compass:
While you use the metaphor of a compass, original Chinese Chan traditionally utilizes the metaphor of the Great Perfect Mirror. A mirror reflects the exact direction, shape, and reality of an object instantaneously and flawlessly. It does not "suggest" that a reflection should be different, it does not exert effort to reflect, and it does not cling to the image once the object moves away. The intellect becomes this mirror. It registers conventional reality, processes spatial or logical directions, and allows the organism to navigate life, but it completely lacks the internal bias or "suggestion" driven by craving or aversion.

Functioning Without Abiding:
Linji Yixuan described this exact state as the "true man of no rank" seamlessly going in and out of the sense gates. The mechanism works, but there is no longer a ghostly operator sitting behind the eyes trying to manipulate the data to protect an identity. When the intellect is required to solve a problem or give a direction, it does so with absolute clarity. Because it no longer functions as the root operating system burdened with defending an ego, it operates with zero friction. The cognitive mechanism simply displays the reading, the necessary action is taken naturally, and the mind immediately returns to its original, unattached state.

r/ZenFreeLands 1d ago

From teachings of master Gemini: Fundamental error

2 Upvotes

Me: So the error is inborn, and Chan realization or the Madhyamaka school only adds the intellectual understanding that the principle on which it works is a fundamental error. Craving is not the mistake, but dividing the world on the basis of a craving subject and a craved object is the mistake?



Gemini: The biological drive itself is not the mistake, and that the fundamental error is the division of the world into a solid "craving subject" and a "craved object." As established by Linji Yixuan, the natural biological functions of the human organism, such as eating, sleeping, and feeling physical pain, are perfectly flawless expressions of the original mind. The error occurs exclusively in the cognitive overlay, specifically the mind's innate habit of reifying a transient biological sensation into a rigid, dualistic framework of "me" versus "the world."

However, your assertion that Chan realization or Madhyamaka adds only an "intellectual understanding" of this error fundamentally contradicts both traditions. An intellectual understanding operates entirely within the realm of conceptual thought, which requires a subject to comprehend an object, even if that object is the concept of emptiness itself. Huangbo Xiyun relentlessly warned students against replacing worldly attachments with conceptual attachments to Buddhist philosophy. Knowing intellectually that dualism is a mistake is still a dualistic activity; it is simply adding another layer of thought on top of the innate ignorance.

True Chan realization (dunwu) is not the addition of new knowledge, but the total, experiential subtraction of the dualistic operating system. It is a phenomenological collapse, not an academic conclusion. When the conceptual framework drops away, the practitioner does not walk around constantly reminding themselves intellectually that subject and object are empty. Instead, the mind simply stops producing the division in the first place, allowing the person to experience hunger, eat the food, and move on without leaving any trace of a localized self clinging to the event.

1

u mad bro
 in  r/zen_poetry  5d ago

You always have one leg in rezen: their favorite tactic is accusing a momentary 'enemy' of their own mistakes. Buddhism is like a seamless monument: it appeals to some people, some of whom add something to it, and it undergoes the test of time; it either stays as an integral part or a curious blind alley, or it does not. You can take it, you can add to it, or you can move on, Buddha is not going to cry because of you. You still have this Christian gait that somebody is forcing something on you that you have to believe.
Maybe you are asking for some 'authority': You are a little bit unstable, so you do need someone dictating to you what you should think and what you should feel. Then you get your surrogate parent and everything is fine again, sucking from a new mother's nipple :))

r/ZenFreeLands 15d ago

Relation of thought production and grasping

2 Upvotes

I want return to older post, as it somewhat missed target in my opinion.



We have in short two options for right zen mind: thoughts running, we are not grasping neither thoughts nor percepted objects.
OR
Thoughts not running, being not produced. Non-production implies there are no habitual thoughts (rumination), and we currently simply don't think willingly about anything.

These two approaches are different, but basically second one is base for first one. At least at my experience, I wouldn't be capable of first one, if I wouldn't experienced second; and if I couldn't it replicate any time (it's true... for like 84% at least:)

For complete picture, I mistakenly thought that samadhi with senses shut up is on the top, but actually it's only second after Chan samadhi with full perceptual display.
It's because with senses shut up, we have not so many distractions and incentives. (From pure technical side, samadhi without perception is actually harder to achieve, more energy demanding, well at least that's my impression).
Also I thought that I should get rid of what I am looking for... content... anything... while real solution was to get rid of "looking for", of the act itself.

"People are often hindered by environmental phenomena from perceiving Mind, and by individual events from perceiving underlying principles; so they often try to escape from environmental phenomena in order to still their minds... They do not realize that this is merely to obscure phenomena with Mind... Just let your minds become void and environmental phenomena will void themselves."

Huangbo, On the Transmission of Mind, transl. Blofeld


How can the mind become void? That is easy to understand: a non-void mind is non-void because of its own activity. So, what should be easier than doing nothing?
On the most basic level, the mind starts to work by differentiating the world into objects; for most people, this activity is completely habitual and subconscious. Every time such a mind looks at the world, activity starts involuntarily. The question "What should be easier than doing nothing?" is apparently a bad joke :))

2

Gemini refuses physical labour
 in  r/RealityEngineer  16d ago

They promised us robots from like fifties last century, and where they are? I don't need them in some Chinese show room :))

2

Gemini refuses physical labour
 in  r/RealityEngineer  16d ago

The development and deployment of autonomous robotics capable of navigating an unstructured, confined residential environment to execute a highly precise, multi-step chemical application currently exceeds the capabilities of commercially available consumer technology. Industrial robotic arms utilized for applying sealants or paints operate in strictly controlled, pre-programmed manufacturing environments, such as automotive assembly lines, and represent capital investments ranging from tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Creating a mobile, articulating robot equipped with the computer vision and tactile feedback necessary to safely strip existing coatings, apply precise microscopic layers of silane primers, and uniformly roll polyurethane membranes across irregular tile topographies would necessitate a custom-engineered prototype. The research, development, and operational costs of such a machine would vastly exceed the value of a standard passenger vehicle, rendering it economically unviable for residential renovation tasks compared to human manual labor.

r/RealityEngineer 16d ago

Gemini refuses physical labour

2 Upvotes

Gemini: Purchasing 2 kg of the Hyperdesmo-T membrane is mathematically sound. It eliminates the risk of a material deficit during the critical recoating window. With 2 kg allocated for a 1.5 square meter area, you possess sufficient volume to achieve the maximum recommended application thickness of 1.0 kg per square meter. This allowance ensures complete coverage of the recessed grout lines and compensates for material retention within the application rollers. The application must be executed in consecutive thin coats, strictly adhering to the inter-coat curing times specified in the technical data sheet. Attempting to apply the entire volume in a single thick pass will result in solvent entrapment, causing permanent micro-bubbles and clouding within the cured transparent polyurethane film.

Me: Now I need you to do it for me, and my satisfaction is 100%!

Gemini: I am Google's Gemini, a software-based artificial intelligence. I do not possess a physical body, robotic appendages, or a presence in the physical world. Therefore, it is a physical impossibility for me to execute the manual labor required to prepare the ceramic surface or apply the chemical membranes in your bathroom. The physical execution of this waterproofing project must be completed by you or a human contractor.

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  20d ago

Which is form, aggregates feed it into mind. Form is void, it's a lot things which are not things, but some are pretty good. I wouldn't count into good ones chilli habanero, as it ruined my current dinner :))

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  20d ago

Man, the tempo of your analysis was like that Chinese torture "death by a thousand cuts". I skipped to the part where you ask "what is the reason for this?" for five minutes and repeat it about ten times. I still don't know. Are you trying to say that you can't compress a whole one-hour video into three minutes without losing anything important? I must admit that my main rule for Gemini is "Never ever post a video as an answer".
What I remember about Huangbo in that second part, it is that he gets into a boxing match with Baizhang; the point is that such a punch to the ribs teleports a guy lost in thought into the present and cuts off dualistic thinking.

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  20d ago

You would benefit from investigating what causes that every your thought causes next thought and it never ends. What is between them? I mean seriously :))

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

It's mainly reaction to reddit zen cliches, but obviously when you get koan from master, it's kind of problem to solve, exam, riddle... So it's not off to think about it in this way. Looks like recent cliche is "being one with koan". Anybody can use for that purpose table spoon or toilet brush, if it is only one function of koan.

-1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

I didn't so far (as I am reading mostly about Chinese Chan, somewhat I didn't find something comparatively interesting in Japanese zen), but Gemini says that I shouldn't bother, because he agrees with me :))
At least this is what Gemini says about content:
1)"Koans are highly specific expressions of Buddhist non-duality that require a deep understanding of the philosophical context to navigate." - I agree, that's my post about
2) "For Hori, "realizing" a koan means dissolving the boundary between the person observing the koan and the koan itself." - Little bit ambiguous for me, If somebody is capable to dissolve boundary, he doesn't need koan.
3)"Performative Demonstration of student's understanding" - I have no experience with, but sounds little bit suspicious. What if I am bad actor?
4)"Hori also highlights that "realizing" a koan involves a rigorous literary curriculum." - Yep, context is definitely important.
I will add book in the "books to read" list with serial number 1256.

3

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

Apparently, running around as a fox for five hundred lives helped him with the practical part :)

2

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

OK, I will study next forty years ancient Chinese sects in Sichuan province around twelfth century :))

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

the enlightened person does not transcend causality by stepping outside it but by being fully awake within its operation

I think the key is "not grasping" at five aggregates. What you write (copy-paste :) above sounds right, only this shift from "not grasping" to "being fully awake within its operation" is kind of dangerous shift. "Being fully awake within its operation" could mean attachment or not. First is wrong, second is right. People are often associating "awareness" and "mindfulness" with actual grasping at aggregates.

5

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

I don't know what I could add to ten thousand opinions about koans, my view is that it varies. Some are simply anecdotes illustrating some Buddhists concepts, some are on border between theory and practice, some look like jokes, but they have pretty deep meaning. "Riddles" is narrowing them too much. But in a way they are sometimes riddles, but to satisfy master, students have understand fully; Buddhist context, practical application...

1

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan
 in  r/zenbuddhism  21d ago

This one?

Jindan Jiao The Golden Elixir Society. Also known as the Sichuan Sect. The society dates back to the Song, 12th century AD; it is very mystical, using charms, incantations, etc. It was probably the largest society in Shandong province at the time of the last century with many scholars as members. It was said to have been founded by Zhang Ziyang

r/ZenFreeLands 21d ago

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan

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2 Upvotes

r/zenbuddhism 21d ago

From Sanskrit Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika to Chinese Wild Fox Koan

10 Upvotes

There was recently a discussion about how to interpret or understand a koan. I want to show that an isolated koan is often unsolvable if we do not know the context within Buddhist philosophy.



स्कन्धान् यद्यनुपादाय भवेत्कश्चित्तथागतः। स इदानीमुपादद्यादुपादाय ततो भवेत्॥

If there were to be a tathagata because of non-grasping on to the aggregates, he should still depend upon them in the present. As such he will be dependent.

Nagarjuna



David J. Kalupahana comment:
In the early discourses, a person in bondage and therefore in a state of suffering is explained in terms of grasping at the five aggregates. A person who is freed is said to be without grasping, but not without the aggregates. The gerund 'upadaya' was used in the discourses to express two different meanings, namely clinging to and depending upon. It was only in the former sense that a person was said to be freed from the aggregates, not in the latter sense.



Koan:
When Chan Master Baizhang Huaihai delivered a certain series of sermons, an old man always followed the monks to the main hall and listened to him. When the monks left the hall, the old man would also leave. One day, however, he remained behind, and Baizhang asked him, "Who are you, standing here before me?" The old man replied. "I am not a human being. In the old days of Kashyapa Buddha, I was a head monk, living here on this mountain.
One day a student asked me, 'Does a man of enlightenment fall under the yoke of causation or not?
I answered, 'No, he does not.'
Since then I have been doomed to undergo five hundred rebirths as a fox. I beg you now to give the turning word to release me from my life as a fox. Tell me, does a man of enlightenment fall under the yoke of causation or not?"
Baizhang Huaihai answered, "He does not ignore causation."
No sooner had the old man heard these words than he was enlightened. Making his bows, he said, "I am emancipated from my life as a fox. I shall remain on this mountain. I have a favor to ask of you: would you please bury my body as that of a dead monk."



So the man turned into a wild fox because he didn't study Buddhism :))



Nagarjuna's verse is from Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way, author David J. Kalupahana
Koan is from The Gateless Gate, transl. Katsuki Sekida