r/moderatepolitics • u/awaythrowawaying • 2d ago

News Article US Justice Department sues UCLA alleging antisemitic educational environment

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-justice-department-sues-ucla-alleging-antisemitic-educational-environment-2026-05-26/
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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/knign 1d ago

As I said, I have no idea why you keep bringing up Zionist movement.

Thing is, the Jewish state is intrinsically connected to Jewish identity. Trying to deny this and pretend that “condemning Israel” has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish identity is absurd.

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u/VultureSausage 1d ago

Thing is, the Jewish state is intrinsically connected to Jewish identity. Trying to deny this and pretend that “condemning Israel” has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish identity is absurd.

Israel claims that, but Israel has no authority to speak on the behalf of anyone who isn't Israeli.

Zionism is relevant because Israel is claiming authority to speak on behalf of people based on the ethnicity of those people for political reasons. That there is an intrinsic part of Judaism that desires a Jewish state in modern-day Israel does not mean that support for the actions of the modern state of Israel is intrinsic to Judaism. Support for "Israel" in the sense of an ideal Jewish homeland in the Levant is not the same as support for "Israel" in the sense of the modern-day state of that name. The latter is trying to achieve (a version of) the former, but they are not the same. Israel the state is conflating itself with Israel the ideal for entirely political reasons.

In other words, you do not have to be a Zionist (supporter of the modern-day state of Israel) to because Jew (supporter of the idea of Israel).

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u/knign 1d ago

I can only reiterate what I said above:

  • Judaism is a religion. Nothing in this discussion is relevant to any religion.
  • Zionist movement created modern state of Israel 78 years ago. Nothing in this discussion is relevant to this history.
  • People can have any views they want. You can be a Jew who hates Israel or you can be an Israeli who hates Jews.
  • None of that changes the fact that Israel is the Jewish state as as such demanding to "condemn Israel" is not materially different than saying "Jews aren't welcome".
  • This wouldn't be any different for any other nation state.

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u/VultureSausage 1d ago edited 1d ago

None of that changes the fact that Israel is the Jewish state

You're doing the thing I pointed out, conflating Israel the state as being synonymous with Israel the religious concept of a Jewish homeland. It isn't. That Israel the state aspires to be Israel the concept does not mean that it is. If we're talking Jews as an ethnicity then it's even more spurious. It is a Jewish state; that does not mean that every Jew is Israeli.

A Jewish man in Massachusetts does not intrinsically have a link to Israel. That link being asserted by Israel is arguably in itself anti-Semitic because it asserts that people are associated with the actions of a state they have nothing to do with, that has presumed to take upon itself the right to speak for people without their consent.

Judaism is a religion. Nothing in this discussion is relevant to any religion.

The religion itself is relevant because it is the means through which the state of Israel legitimises itself. Further, the idea that a Jewish homeland in the Levant has nothing to do with Judaism is utterly absurd.

Zionist movement created modern state of Israel 78 years ago. Nothing in this discussion is relevant to this history.

Zionism as a political movement didn't end 78 years ago. The claim that the state that grew out of those efforts is identical to the religious concept of Israel and that the state of Israel has a mandate to speak for all the Jews of the world is intimately linked to both Zionism and Judaism. The idea of a return to the Promised Land and the creation of a Jewish homeland there is deeply rooted in religion. Israel the state represents an attempt to make that a reality, but that doesn't mean one has to accept that claim in order to be Jewish.

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u/SmoothAnus 1d ago

I am bringing up the Zionist movement because that is the movement for a Jewish state.

The idea that a Jewish state is intrinsically tied to Jewish identity is false. It's not true historically, and it's not true even today. Zionists want it to be so that they can claim religious persecution any time someone objects to Israel's actions, but it isn't.

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u/knign 1d ago

Zionist movement is one which created the Jewish state. Today Israel is an existing state, which you can love, hate, support, boycott, criticise, be indifferent to, or anything else, but bringing "Zionism" into this as about as relevant as bringing Pilgrims into debates about today's U.S. policies.

And Israel is factually the Jewish state. Trying to argue that it has nothing to do with Jewish identity is absurd.

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u/SmoothAnus 1d ago

Ok, say Israel is the product of Zionism. Thanks for confirming.

You can be Jewish and not support Israel. Heck, you can be Jewish and actively opposed to the existence of Israel. Being Jewish and supporting Israel are two different things.

Criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Jews.

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u/knign 1d ago edited 1d ago

You can also be an Israeli and hate everything Jewish. Unironically, I do know people like that (not talking about Arab Israelis).

So what? Israel is still the Jewish state.

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u/SmoothAnus 1d ago

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.

The claim being made is that support for the state of Israel is fundamentally and intrinsically tied to the Jewish religion, and that criticizing someone for their support of Israel is exactly equivalent to criticizing them for being Jewish.

This claim is false, and you've basically acknowledged as much. That means you know why the distinction is being made, and you're being disingenuous when you pretend to be confused.

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u/knign 1d ago

I never made this claim. In fact, I said several times that this has nothing to do with any religion, Jewish or otherwise. Israel is mostly a secular state. Zionism was a secular movement. This "claim" as you describe it isn't just "false", it's absurd.

My claim was that demaiding to "condemn Israel" to enter somewhere is not fundamentally different from saying "Jews aren't welcome". This wouldn't be any different for any other nation state.